Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

In a June 2015 study, Metrolinx concluded that the Yonge subway will be under capacity even in 2031, due to the implementation of Regional Express Rail/SmartTrack, the Spadina subway extension, automated train control and other currently funded projects. Therefore, there is no reason the extension of the Yonge subway can’t proceed in parallel with other priority transit projects over the next 15 years.

I honestly dont understand how some people interpret the Metolinx report saying that the Yonge line will be under capacity in 2031. From what I took out of the report, it stated that the Yonge line will be at or over capacity again by 2031 even after RER, the Spadina extension and ATC are in place.

Another thing I disagree with is proceeding with the extension in parallel with currently funded projects. The only currently funded projects that would relieve the Yonge line in any way would be: RER, the Spadina extension, ATC and the Eglinton Crosstown. So basically what Emmerson is saying is that the Yonge extension should be constructed as soon as RER construction begins. The issue is; no one knows 100% for sure how RER will affect transportation patterns in the GTA -even with all the analysis and modelling that is being done- until it's completed.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Metrolinx report is clearly one of those half-full/half-empty things. Luckily, I know it's half full.

My reading is that if you build DRL and RER it opens up sufficient capacity that you can extend the subway. But in the fullness of time it will be back at capacity.
It's not insignificant they recommended advancing design work on the extension. Why would you do that if your study concludes there's no point??

People just keep cherry-picking and reading what they want into it. But here's a few black and white things I'm picking out:
The Relief Line is a long term project that will not be needed immediately. The planning, design and construction of the Relief Line will require many years.

Interesting! And here's a big one people keep missing:
The upward pressures (population and employment growth) are offset by larger downward pressures (network improvements) resulting in about the same demand for the Yonge Subway in 2031 as today but with higher capacity
• The volume to capacity ratio will be 89%

Now tell me - is Alan Shefman still a liar or does it say there will be capacity, in 2031?
Amare just said - and others have too - the report says that Line 1 will be at or over capacity but that's not what it says. It says demand will be at current levels, but with more capacity. 11%, if my math is right.

Now, I'd love for all the "NO, it's OVER CAPACITY!!!" drum-beaters, who imagine that's what the report says to explain this:
With the Yonge North Extension, the Yonge Subway will still be under capacity
The volume to capacity ratio would become 96%

If it's not too bold I'm going to post that again, in a bright colour!
With the Yonge North Extension, the Yonge Subway will still be under capacity

Ed Keenan and The Toronto Star and Josh Colle and everyone else who said that's NOT what the report says - and that, indeed, York's politicians were LIARS, can suck on that. Black and white. And now red.

Amare - you're right that no one knows 100% for sure how RER will affect transportation patterns.
No one knows 100% for sure that the Yonge extension will overwhelm the system either. There are all sorts of interlocking projects and modelling results but at the end of the day, they're predictions; not psychic visions. To the extent we do know, we know that there IS capacity.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Relief Line is a long term project that will not be needed immediately. The planning, design and construction of the Relief Line will require many years.

It's not needed immediately. It's needed by 2031, which is why we need to move forward with the Relief Line immediately.

The volume to capacity ratio would become 96%

96% is effectively at capacity, and is well within the margin of error of these projections. For example, as I posted in the Relief Line thread yesterday, it's questionable if the TTC can meet their Yonge Line headway targets. If they miss that target by even 10 seconds, Yonge will again be over capacity. Furthermore, given ridership growth, that'd again reach 100% capacity within 1.5 years of 2031.

Finally, those ridership models are based on the outdated GTA v3 model. The GTA v4 model, which allows for more fine grained projections, estimates ridership 2031 well above capacity in all modelled situations (excluding 5 min ST).

 

[minilude]

They clearly mean 96% equals to full, and fear mongering for something like 101% to happen. Like someone else mentioned, in peak hour our highways and systems should be green and flying.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They clearly mean 96% equals to full, and fear mongering for something like 101% to happen. Like someone else mentioned, in peak hour our highways and systems should be green and flying.

We're projecting a 112% v/c ratio with YNSE. 110% without. Yonge Line currently operates at 111% v/c, to give you an idea of what Yonge's operating conditions will be with YNSE. The situation should remain essentially unchanged from today.

 

[pman]

It is an interesting question.

As we built out our highways into the suburbs and generally improved car access, we also consequently encouraged car-oriented suburban build form to fill up that access capacity on our highways.

By investing in transit and expanding subway capacity, we do the same. We encourage transit-oriented development and more urban build forms to fill up that access capacity on our subways.

Here is the interesting thing about the numbers for Yonge North extension. While it adds several thousand riders at peak hour, putting us significantly above capacity, the numbers also indicates that boardings within Toronto simultaneously declined by several thousand as Torontonian transit users, perhaps distraught with watching 4 or 5 trains go by before getting on and live life as a sardine, decide to opt away from using public transit.

This is a problem in general, as with or without the Yonge North extension, the Yonge subway is going to become over-capacity and be a generally hellish experience during the morning and evening rush hour. This is going to chase away many many potential transit users.

So I am unsure if the same thing with roads would apply to transit, because with transit we are not concerned with just purely 'commuter throughput' as the traffic engineers of old were. We are concerned with all the social, economic, environmental and urban benefits that transit, high transit mode share, and transit-oriented development provides. While white elephant transit projects are obviously to be discouraged, we need to continuously strive to make our transit system have some breathing room between ridership and capacity in order to achieve maximum socioeconomic efficiency.

I'm one of the people you mentioned. I found getting on Line 1 southbound at Rosedale in rush hour was such a misery that I gave up and drove to work downtown. I don't understand why people who live in 905 think it's their God-given right to push 416 commuters off our municipal subway system.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not going to quibble with people who say 96% is the same as 100%, which is full and then really the same at 111%. This modelling model, that modelling model etc. etc. I don't dispute there are moving targets and these are predictions, not objective reality etc. And, yes, obviously the DRL should still be built. The point of the report - and the point the York pols have made - is that it does not have to go FIRST. That's what the report says.

If the best The Tiger Master et al can muster is that, sure it will be 15% better than today but still full, I say that proves it why it can and should be built.

Amare was all, "I don't know how people think it says there's capacity..." Well now he knows.

York Region politicians who said that's what the report said in he past 2 weeks were called liars. They're not. Period.

I'm one of the people you mentioned. I found getting on Line 1 southbound at Rosedale in rush hour was such a misery that I gave up and drove to work downtown. I don't understand why people who live in 905 think it's their God-given right to push 416 commuters off our municipal subway system.

Too funny. It's a free country and they paid a fare. You wanna have a paramilitary force at the gates checking passports, more power to you. Otherwise suck it up and be happy you live in a city with a vibrant economy. Then call your City Councillor and tell them to jack up your taxes to the level required to build the infrastructure the city you live in has purposefully neglected. Or drive - it's your god-given right. (Or, since you're only going from Rosedale to downtown, gt on a bike. Whatever.)

 

[Palma]

-

 

[Palma]

I'm not going to quibble with people who say 96% is the same as 100%, which is full and then really the same at 111%. This modelling model, that modelling model etc. etc. I don't dispute there are moving targets and these are predictions, not objective reality etc. And, yes, obviously the DRL should still be built. The point of the report - and the point the York pols have made - is that it does not have to go FIRST. That's what the report says.

If the best The Tiger Master et al can muster is that, sure it will be 15% better than today but still full, I say that proves it why it can and should be built.

Amare was all, "I don't know how people think it says there's capacity..." Well now he knows.

York Region politicians who said that's what the report said in he past 2 weeks were called liars. They're not. Period.





Too funny. It's a free country and they paid a fare. You wanna have a paramilitary force at the gates checking passports, more power to you. Otherwise suck it up and be happy you live in a city with a vibrant economy. Then call your City Councillor and tell them to jack up your taxes to the level required to build the infrastructure the city you live in has purposefully neglected. Or drive - it's your god-given right. (Or, since you're only going from Rosedale to downtown, gt on a bike. Whatever.)

Get rid of the parking lots at Finch. Toronto residents are for the most part a 10 min walk to a bus. Residents that use Finch subways aren't far from a bus that can get them to the Finch subway. Can York residents say the same and would they take buses to get to Finch?

Parking lots at Wilson are also disappearing due to condos being built. None of the stations on the Crosstown will have stations as far as I know. The parking lot at York Mills and Yonge also going and will have condos built

 

[lead82]

The parking at Finch serves a purpose not only for York region residents but those that live east and west of the station. While the parking lots at Wilson and York Mills are disappearing, the parking at Finch will never be removed. They are in a hydro ROW and nothing else can be built there so removing the parking lots will not make the land any more productive.

With all the debate about the subway extension to RHC, the subway must be extended north from Finch to improve the operational bottleneck that exists today. As much as the TTC claims it can get train frequency down to 110 seconds, I find this to be pure imagination. The TTC can't even get trains into Finch station on a 2.5min frequency without creating a backlog of trains that reaches as far as York Mills some days. On Friday it took 20 mins to go from Sheppard Station to Finch station. That is insanity since I can walk that distance in the same amount of time. All because of trains backing up in the tunnels and TTC not able to turn trains around quickly.

Finch station track geometry doesn't bode well for increased service that is required to support the capacity. If you extend the subway at least to Steeles, Steeles can be designed with 3 platforms or better track geometry to allow trains to turn around much faster. So while the extension to Highway 7 requires the Relief Line to be built first, the extension to Steeles is long overdue and would improve service for mostly Toronto residents and some York Region residents living along Steeles. Think of how many buses on route 60 and 53 the TTC can save if it didn't have to have them go down to Finch station. The ridership at Yonge/Steeles more than justifies a subway station, and it would improve the operational speed of the Yonge line without overwhelming the Yonge line with new demand.

 

[minilude]

Get rid of the parking lots at Finch. Toronto residents are for the most part a 10 min walk to a bus. Residents that use Finch subways aren't far from a bus that can get them to the Finch subway. Can York residents say the same and would they take buses to get to Finch?

Parking lots at Wilson are also disappearing due to condos being built. None of the stations on the Crosstown will have stations as far as I know. The parking lot at York Mills and Yonge also going and will have condos built

Great idea. Too bad the Finch parking is at a hydro corridor that would never suitable for condo. Also would love to see TTC cutting all YRT lines crossing Steeles. It's TTC's territory and we definitely need a wall.

 

[WislaHD]

The parking at Finch serves a purpose not only for York region residents but those that live east and west of the station. While the parking lots at Wilson and York Mills are disappearing, the parking at Finch will never be removed. They are in a hydro ROW and nothing else can be built there so removing the parking lots will not make the land any more productive.

With all the debate about the subway extension to RHC, the subway must be extended north from Finch to improve the operational bottleneck that exists today. As much as the TTC claims it can get train frequency down to 110 seconds, I find this to be pure imagination. The TTC can't even get trains into Finch station on a 2.5min frequency without creating a backlog of trains that reaches as far as York Mills some days. On Friday it took 20 mins to go from Sheppard Station to Finch station. That is insanity since I can walk that distance in the same amount of time. All because of trains backing up in the tunnels and TTC not able to turn trains around quickly.

Finch station track geometry doesn't bode well for increased service that is required to support the capacity. If you extend the subway at least to Steeles, Steeles can be designed with 3 platforms or better track geometry to allow trains to turn around much faster. So while the extension to Highway 7 requires the Relief Line to be built first, the extension to Steeles is long overdue and would improve service for mostly Toronto residents and some York Region residents living along Steeles. Think of how many buses on route 60 and 53 the TTC can save if it didn't have to have them go down to Finch station. The ridership at Yonge/Steeles more than justifies a subway station, and it would improve the operational speed of the Yonge line without overwhelming the Yonge line with new demand.

The connecting feeder routes justify extension to at least Steeles. The Steeles East and West bus carry 55,000 together daily and operate 77 buses during morning peak hour. This is twice the amount of the entire VIVA network and more than four times the VIVA Blue Bus down Yonge Street (16,000). Plus the development potential at Newtonbrook Plaza and Steeles Corners would be huge on it's own. (And IMO is a lot more promising/realistic than Hwy-7/Yonge)

Regionally, if there were no municipal borders, extending it to just Steeles makes a lot of sense for the interim. This will never happen though because we do have a municipal border and it would appear as a slight to the lucrative voting district known as York Region.

 

[lead82]

What is with this wall mentality in Toronto. Steeles is not a real border. It's ridiculous that we would put up obstacles to transit when there is huge demand. YRT buses should definitely go to Finch as that is the destination for the majority of it's riders.

Toronto needs to get it act together and build the relief line instead of talking about it for 70 years.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm not going to quibble with people who say 96% is the same as 100%

This logic seems.... incredibly flawed...

"Oh we are not over the cliff yet, better keep moving forward!"

Meanwhile:

I'm one of the people you mentioned. I found getting on Line 1 southbound at Rosedale in rush hour was such a misery that I gave up and drove to work downtown. I don't understand why people who live in 905 think it's their God-given right to push 416 commuters off our municipal subway system.

 

[pman]

I'm not going to quibble with people who say 96% is the same as 100%, which is full and then really the same at 111%. This modelling model, that modelling model etc. etc. I don't dispute there are moving targets and these are predictions, not objective reality etc. And, yes, obviously the DRL should still be built. The point of the report - and the point the York pols have made - is that it does not have to go FIRST. That's what the report says.

If the best The Tiger Master et al can muster is that, sure it will be 15% better than today but still full, I say that proves it why it can and should be built.

Amare was all, "I don't know how people think it says there's capacity..." Well now he knows.

York Region politicians who said that's what the report said in he past 2 weeks were called liars. They're not. Period.



Too funny. It's a free country and they paid a fare. You wanna have a paramilitary force at the gates checking passports, more power to you. Otherwise suck it up and be happy you live in a city with a vibrant economy. Then call your City Councillor and tell them to jack up your taxes to the level required to build the infrastructure the city you live in has purposefully neglected. Or drive - it's your god-given right. (Or, since you're only going from Rosedale to downtown, gt on a bike. Whatever.)

Except:
1. The fare the 905 riders pay had exactly nothing to do with the distance they travel;
2. The 905 riders live outside Toronto and therefore don't pay property taxes that fund so much of TTC operations; and
3. If outer suburbanites are so concerned about working downtown then they should be incented to live closer instead of in their sprawled, heavily-subsidized wasteland.

As for that bike bullshit, seriously, somebody who lives on half an acre in Richmond Hill should get a seat on a conveniently located subway while someone who lives in a densely populated area has trouble cramming onto a packed train? That's the kind of fucked up lunacy that has made transit in this region such a mess.