Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TheTigerMaster]

Somehow I recall someone (Byford? Metrolinx? Tory? I honestly cant remember) saying that the Yonge extension should not be built until a Relief line was in place to make room for the added passengers this would attract on the Yonge line.

- Paul

Everyone was saying this.

When they did the Yonge North study, they found that the Yonge line was at maximum capacity and that this extension could not be built until:
- Toronto Rockets are in service
- Automatic Train Operation
- Downtown Relief Line

Without these three investments, Yonge will be way over capacity. The desire to build Yonge North is more or less why the City of Toronto moved ahead with the Relief Line.

How many of those busses could be diverted to the relief line or RER if it were in place?

Are you talking about the Richmond Hill RER?

This is a good question. I recall that the Yonge North extension would move 10,000 pphpd (a good number), but this number does not factor in RER. Richmond Hill RER could strip off a few thousand people from Yonge Line extension. This is good in that it would reduce crowding on Yonge, but this also make it hard to justify building this extension at all. If the subway is only going to move 7,000 people, we might as well just continue running busses, imo.

I'm not quite sure how York Region busses would be diverted to the Relief Line. I think I've misunderstood your question.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Even if there are bus lanes, the capacity of subways may be needed. Also it could give the possibility to improve turnaround times at Steeles to improve operations on the whole line.

I understand the arguments that the subway is too full already, but if massive waves of buses are going down Yonge from Steeles to Finch anyways, we may as well build it.

Do we really need the subway capacity though?

As insert mentioned, we have HOV lanes that are handling the traffic (I presume rather pooorly). Shouldn't upgrading to a BRT provide enough capacity for these busses to flow smoothly?

I have a hard time seeing how HOV has been sufficient until now, but BRT is not sufficient.

Edit: Actually, on second thought, there is all that intensification that's happing on Yonge in York Region. This could push the demands beyond the capacity of BRT. In this case, the subway should absolutely be extended to Steeles.

As insert mentioned, bus congestion drops dramatically north of Steeles, so I don't see any purpose in extending it north of there, unless we're going to terminate it at Richmond Hill Centre, and unless this extension will move somewhere around 10,000 people.

 

[ehlow]

Do we really need the subway capacity though?

As insert mentioned, we have HOV lanes that are handling the traffic (I presume rather pooorly). Shouldn't upgrading to a BRT provide enough capacity for these busses to flow smoothly?

I have a hard time seeing how HOV has been sufficient until now, but BRT is not sufficient.

Edit: Actually, on second thought, there is all that intensification that's happing on Yonge in York Region. This could push the demands beyond the capacity of BRT. In this case, the subway should absolutely be extended to Steeles.

As insert mentioned, bus congestion drops dramatically north of Steeles, so I don't see any purpose in extending it north of there, unless we're going to terminate it at Richmond Hill Centre, and unless this extension will move somewhere around 10,000 people.

What do you mean by BRT?

I don't personally know the demand numbers but I thought innsertnamehere said that it was one of the most justified in terms of ridership.

In general though, even a bus under the most ideal conditions, all door level boarding etc, when the ridership grows to a certain level you want to move to a larger vehicle. The capacity upgrade from artic bus to LRV train is massive, and to subway train it's even more massive. There are only so many buses you can fit on a bus lane along a road with traffic lights before you need to upgrade to a larger vehicle.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What do you mean by BRT?

Think of LRT with busses, rather than LRVs. So a partially exclusive, physically separated ROW, with signal priority.

In general though, even a bus under the most ideal conditions, all door level boarding etc, when the ridership grows to a certain level you want to move to a larger vehicle. The capacity upgrade from artic bus to LRV train is massive, and to subway train it's even more massive. There are only so many buses you can fit on a bus lane along a road with traffic lights before you need to upgrade to a larger vehicle.

Yeah, I agree with this. Signal priority wouldn't work well with that many vehicles. I imagine that we'd have lines of busses waiting to cross lights.

We also have to consider the bottle neck at Steels with the busses getting onto the BRT I suggested. I honestly can't see that many busses navigating traffic lanes to getting onto the ROW working very well. This is especially true for the busses that have to turn left or right from Steeles to enter the BRT. The only way I can see getting around this is if we built an underground system, where busses can enter the ROW without having to navigate the traffic lights and lanes.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

By the way, I still do question why is it that Yonge can handle all the bus traffic now, but a BRT is viewed as insufficient. Are we anticipating a large spike in bus traffic in the next few years?

 

[innsertnamehere]

The problem is that it can't really handle all that bus traffic right now. Its overloaded to the point that travel time is significantly delayed.

In median BRTs aren't good for short traffic hops that a BRT to Steeles would be anyway. The big issues are really with making left turns and 5 buses all pulling up to the same stop at once, neither of which would be fixed with central BRT lanes instead of curbside.

if you are talking about the complexity of things such as left turn underpasses, you may as well build the subway extension.

 

[rbt]

There's not much point in the extension if it's going to be stopped at Steeles, imo. Just build a busway from Steeles to Finch if people are concerned about bus congestion.

Even without a station north of Finch an extension of the tunnels has a reasonable business case for overnight train storage. Certainly not flashy but it would greatly extend the overnight work period and reduce morning startup costs by reducing train movements. I actually thought Ford might have jumped on stuff like this when first elected; perhaps someone will mention it to Tory.

 

[UD2]

I'm not sure extending the yonge line to Steeles ave to serve increased usage due to intensificationa north of Yonge is the best use of Toronto's funds right now. Especially prior to the completion of another north south subway such as the DRL.

I believe a 20% solution right now could be to build a shallow tunnel under yonge street so that the busses can pull into their station areas without needing to make the left turns that they currently need to make just north of Finch. The entrance and exit tunnels can use some of the existing parking lot lands.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not quite sure how York Region busses would be diverted to the Relief Line. I think I've misunderstood your question.

No, you got the essence of it. I'm not knowledgeable of where the busses that access Finch Station come from. If there were some other transit node up there in York Region, would it pull people away from Yonge? The RER is one possibility, but I'm also thinking of the Spadina extension when it opens, and theoretically a DRLif it ever were built that far north. All those York commuters on the Yonge line don't live within walking dIstance of the Yonge North bus route, I'm guessing.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

In my written submission to TTC Commissioners and the EA Process, I stated at no time could TTC or York Region could come up with the numbers that the line would carry a peak time on opening day to the point I said they would be Lucky to see 1,500 riders. Based on various numbers, York Region would need 15% yearly increase to meet 8,000 riders by 2030 and still below the thresh hold for a subway.

Based on numbers from day 1, service would be every 10-15 minutes at peak time to be carry north of Steeles and would fall to 6 minutes by 2030 at best.

An BRT will handle the ridership north of Steeles, but I call for an LRT in place of the BRT.

The extension of the Yonge Line north of Finch to Steeles is needed now and will save everyone one time and money now, that it justify the building of the extension sooner than later with provision to store trains overnight up there.

Regardless if you put all the the items on the Yonge Line call for, it will still be overcrowded by 2040/50 that you are back to the current problems to the point you need another Yonge Line. This includes an true DRL.

The opening of the Spadina Extension will have no effect as a DRL line as its will never carry the ridership of an Yonge line since the balk of the ridership is from the east of Yonge St in the first place. It is to service the 400 hwy drivers so they don't have to drive into the city core as stated by MTO.

An REX will off set some ridership, but not as much as Tory thinks, as not everyone is going downtown in the first place. This is a fault methodology that everyone is going downtown and it applies right across the the GTA. Its like everyone wants to go to Sq One Mall and are force to do so to transfer to another route when they want to bypass it in the first place to get to where they want to go faster. Or a person in Burlington or Oakville who want to go to Georgetown or Markham, they must go into Toronto to get the service they need since there is none today to get them to where they want to go in the first place.

At no time in the original EA process, could we make a case for a subway on the Waterfront. The best was an LRT even though an BRT would work on day one east of Yonge St.

The Bremner portal is east of York St near the square to go under the ACC and it will have an impact on current crowds and events there as well not justifying the need for a line on Bremner in the first place. The square would be effect 100% of the time as this would be the only way traffic could make a U-turn to get out of the buildings in the area, especially the Maple Leaf Condo Towers to the south.

The Bremner line has already lost part of the Western Waterfront route with the building of the Fort York Visitor centre. The number of cars TTC wanted to bring off Bathurst St doesn't justify the need for the Bremner line in the first place. Also, it will have an impact on both QQ east & West lines as well the 510. Even if you move 510 to the Bremner Line, it will still cause an impact on operation for "ALL" lines.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No, you got the essence of it. I'm not knowledgeable of where the busses that access Finch Station come from. If there were some other transit node up there in York Region, would it pull people away from Yonge? The RER is one possibility, but I'm also thinking of the Spadina extension when it opens, and theoretically a DRLif it ever were built that far north. All those York commuters on the Yonge line don't live within walking dIstance of the Yonge North bus route, I'm guessing.

- Paul

A Don Mills subway terminating at Sheppard has been theorized before. I don't think that it would have a great impact on the number of of busses using the Yonge line. It's much further east, and York Region passengers are more likely to use the more direct downtown connection that the Yonge line provides, imo. If you want to divert those customers away from Yonge, I think Richmond Hill RER would have a bigger impact.

What that Don Mills line would do is divert bus passengers within Toronto (south of Steeles) from the Yonge line, to the Relief Line. For that reason, I think the Don Mills line is worth investigating. However, I'm doubtful that this extension would move enough people to justify the expense.

Edit: To clarify, the Don Mills subway is a northern extension of the DRL, from its proposed terminal at Eglinton and Don Mills.

 

[drum118]

A Don Mills subway terminating at Sheppard has been theorized before. I don't think that it would have a great impact on the number of of busses using the Yonge line. It's much further east, and York Region passengers are more likely to use the more direct downtown connection that the Yonge line provides, imo. If you want to divert those customers away from Yonge, I think Richmond Hill RER would have a bigger impact.

What that Don Mills line would do is divert bus passengers within Toronto (south of Steeles) from the Yonge line, to the Relief Line. For that reason, I think the Don Mills line is worth investigating. However, I'm doubtful that this extension would move enough people to justify the expense.

Edit: To clarify, the Don Mills subway is a northern extension of the DRL, from its proposed terminal at Eglinton and Don Mills.

Unless the Don Mills line goes up to Finch, but most of all, Steeles, the DRL line south of Sheppard will have no effect on the Yonge Line at all.

 

[BMO]

In my written submission to TTC Commissioners and the EA Process, I stated at no time could TTC or York Region could come up with the numbers that the line would carry a peak time on opening day to the point I said they would be Lucky to see 1,500 riders. Based on various numbers, York Region would need 15% yearly increase to meet 8,000 riders by 2030 and still below the thresh hold for a subway.

Based on numbers from day 1, service would be every 10-15 minutes at peak time to be carry north of Steeles and would fall to 6 minutes by 2030 at best.

An BRT will handle the ridership north of Steeles, but I call for an LRT in place of the BRT.

The extension of the Yonge Line north of Finch to Steeles is needed now and will save everyone one time and money now, that it justify the building of the extension sooner than later with provision to store trains overnight up there.

Regardless if you put all the the items on the Yonge Line call for, it will still be overcrowded by 2040/50 that you are back to the current problems to the point you need another Yonge Line. This includes an true DRL.

The opening of the Spadina Extension will have no effect as a DRL line as its will never carry the ridership of an Yonge line since the balk of the ridership is from the east of Yonge St in the first place. It is to service the 400 hwy drivers so they don't have to drive into the city core as stated by MTO.

An REX will off set some ridership, but not as much as Tory thinks, as not everyone is going downtown in the first place. This is a fault methodology that everyone is going downtown and it applies right across the the GTA. Its like everyone wants to go to Sq One Mall and are force to do so to transfer to another route when they want to bypass it in the first place to get to where they want to go faster. Or a person in Burlington or Oakville who want to go to Georgetown or Markham, they must go into Toronto to get the service they need since there is none today to get them to where they want to go in the first place.

At no time in the original EA process, could we make a case for a subway on the Waterfront. The best was an LRT even though an BRT would work on day one east of Yonge St.

The Bremner portal is east of York St near the square to go under the ACC and it will have an impact on current crowds and events there as well not justifying the need for a line on Bremner in the first place. The square would be effect 100% of the time as this would be the only way traffic could make a U-turn to get out of the buildings in the area, especially the Maple Leaf Condo Towers to the south.

The Bremner line has already lost part of the Western Waterfront route with the building of the Fort York Visitor centre. The number of cars TTC wanted to bring off Bathurst St doesn't justify the need for the Bremner line in the first place. Also, it will have an impact on both QQ east & West lines as well the 510. Even if you move 510 to the Bremner Line, it will still cause an impact on operation for "ALL" lines.

If you build to Steeles they are not going to get storage space for trains as that would require track to be built past Steeles. I doubt York Region would support that without a full extension to Hwy 7 as per their official plan and the province's big move plan...something Toronto has yet to come up with for support on any transit initiative. They'd need to build the sheppard west extension to Don Mills if they wanted more storage space for Yonge. That or extend to hwy 7 and take advantage of the storage tracks they're planning to build underground. I'd suspect a lot of the ridership you see on the Steeles buses could theoretically shift up to Clark Ave stop if the subway were to be extended, simply based on my own assumption that a large chunk of Steeles riders aren't actually very close to steeles but are motivated to walk the extra 1km to avoid the double fare.

Granted I think there is some merit in extending the line to Highway 7 in terms of connectivity. But I also think a Sheppard West extension to Downsview would make sense for connectivity as well so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If York Region were that stupid, I hope and expect thay the Province would put them in their place rather quick. They'd sat that either they accept the extension to Steeles with storage track, or get nothing at all.

 

[ehlow]

If York Region were that stupid, I hope and expect thay the Province would put them in their place rather quick. They'd sat that either they accept the extension to Steeles with storage track, or get nothing at all.

Any provincial government would probably prefer that, if they're extending to Steeles, keep going into York Region in order to get votes from York Region.

Why would the Province "put them (York Region) in their place"? They want votes from that region.