Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Subway stations in downtown are spaced 400m, therefore it's not rapid transit. Am I right? The operating speed is not very fast, but you also have to consider how long it takes to walk to the station. Where I live is less than 6 min walk to my bus stop, but over 20 minutes to Bathurst & Sheppard. So with a subway, I will have to walk over 20 minutes rain or shine, and parallel bus service will be reduced to almost nothing. But with an LRT, a station could definitely be build at my current bus stop (based on the 400m spacing). Most people do not live near main intersections, and are not willing to walk that much. There are lots of people like me who clearly would not be well served by the sheppard subway, especially when I only need a short ride to the YUS line. Vehicle speed is nice, but accessibility is very important.

-Well, Sheppard is not downtown. I don't see what's the problem to have a stop every 800m and a parallel bus for local stop. Morningside to Don Mills in 50 min by LRT is really slow if you ask me. Transit City documents confirms that the LRV will wait at red lights which is the source of most of the complaints people have towards transit city. I'll post it again:

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008-06_display_panels_3.pdf

STAGE 1
• All east-west traffic / LRT/pedestrian stopped
• North-South traffic / pedestrians cross

STAGE 2
• All “through” traffic / LRT/pedestrians stopped
• Eastbound and westbound leftturn/ U-turn phase

STAGE 3
• Left-turn/U-turns stopped
• East-West LRT / “through” traffic /pedestrians intersection

Paris streetcars doesn't even do that. The signal changes as soon as the streetcar arrives at the intersection (search Paris T1 to T4 on Youtube). I don't like SELRT because were spending a billion dollars for a glorified streetcar lines. At least if they built it like Paris did or London's DRL, less people would complain starting with me. Like I said before, I do hope Metrolinx modifies theses designs.

If the parallel bus service is reduced to nothing like you said it's because of a TTC decision, not because they can't have more frequent buses. The 85 Sheppard East offers a frequent parallel bus service to the Sheppard Subway, so is NYC, Montreal, Chicago etc..,

But, I do see your point of you and as always, am respectful of people opinions and preferences




I said before that Sheppard is not too narrow. Refer to my previous comment

-Sheppard Avenue West between Bathurst and Yonge is 2 lanes in each directions. Too narrow for an at grade LRT which is why I said an LRT would have to be underground...just like Eglinton central section of the crosstown. If the TTC won't run an LRT at grade with 2 lanes in each directions on Eglinton, why would they on Sheppard?




There are many ways to improve bus service. Shorter headways, queue jump lanes, bigger buses, all door boarding, transit priority. Did you read the transit city bus plan?

-yes I did, I just don't think that it will improve Sheppard West by that much.




They also said it's too expensive to extend. I guess it's a no win situation. Thanks Mike Harris.

-Too expensive with the context of back then. Their main argument is economic. Back then, the amount of funds was limited and they chose the best value for what was available then. With that new transit tax the province is planning on imposing on us, (if the budget pass) that argument went out the window which some councillors were quick to point out to advocate for the Scarborough Subway.

"Asking for families to pay up to 500-600$ a year extra and telling them they are still getting LRT even if the ridership for subway is there is wrong"




Yes there are operational benefits, but spending billions on a subway extension just to reduce deadheading or whatever is not a good enough reason to spend that much money. I see it only as a side benefit, not as the primary justification.

It's a matter of opinion. You don't agree yet TTC and Metrolinx sees the merits.



You support a BRT? That's funny, because I always see you advocating for a subway extension. In my opinion, I don't think extending it further than Don Mills is a good idea, and here's why. Lets say the DRL (orange) goes up to Sheppard, and the sheppard line is extended to Victoria Park. To get downtown, imagine having to transfer from the sheppard LRT (red) to the subway, travel only 2 stops to Don Mills, then transfer again to the relief line. That's two transfers in a short amount of time, which everyone is going to hate.


But if the subway is not extended beyond Don Mills, then it's only one transfer. Don Mills station can become a major transit hub instead. I'm sure there's high ridership up to Victoria Park, but it's not something that a BRT or LRT can't handle either, so lets not waste money on a subway.

-Double Standards. Funny how you criticize that transfer to justify not extending the subway past Don Mills but most of the pro LRT supporters kept saying a transfer is normal, nothing to complain about and exists all around the world. So Scarborough should have just shut up and accept the transfer so they get LRT and in this case, there's shouldn't be any transfer just because you want the LRT there... yeah...ok





Yeah Chicago is a great city to copy. They build their subways in the middle of highways and rail corridors rather than actual streets. Every station outside the downtown is surrounded by low density. Our tiny subway system gets more ridership than them. What a joke. But unlike Chicago, Toronto insists that every new subway must be underground, even in the suburbs. Look at the spadina extension, or the proposed yonge extension, or the scarborough subway. Why does everything have to be in a tunnel? Unfortunately that comes with a price tag:

- Chicago Red Line extension: 1.2 billion, 4 stations, ~5 km, elevated
- Scarborough subway: 3 billion, 3 stations, ~7 km, underground

Our fixation on underground transit means that it costs a lot more to build subways in Toronto. Therefore, we can't afford to throw money at low performing subway lines just because Chicago does it too. The money must go where it's needed most. And keep in mind that Toronto also gets no funding from higher governments to operate these financial sink holes.

Paris would be a much better city to look at. As you said, we should see how they do transit signals, so that our LRTs can be even better.

I agree with everything you said. TTC should look at elevating rapid transit more often or at least study that option. Eglinton East Crosstown should have been elevated and I never thought underground was that necessary. But again, you ignore the fact that I brought Chicago in this debate to show that Sheppard's ridership is not abysmal and it's quite respectable when you look at how many stations it has and how short it is and most importantly, where it's located.
 
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So why do you hate light rail on sheppard so much? Would you have supported it sheppard didn't exist?

I hate that Sheppard East has this major flaw:

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008-06_display_panels_3.pdf

STAGE 1
• All east-west traffic / LRT/pedestrian stopped
• North-South traffic / pedestrians cross

STAGE 2
• All “through” traffic / LRT/pedestrians stopped
• Eastbound and westbound leftturn/ U-turn phase

STAGE 3
• Left-turn/U-turns stopped
• East-West LRT / “through” traffic /pedestrians intersection

It's being sold as a fast LRT when it's a glorified streetcars. Paris is always used as an example and yet, Paris has priority signals and the LRV never waits at an intersection unlike the above. If they wanted to have an LRT, they should have done it right in the first place
 
Thats 750 meters from Don Mills. and as I have said dozens of times, 3 towers do not constitute a justification for a subway extension, its the surrounding density and bus routes which cannot be pictured with a couple of streetview pics.

But if you want to play that game, this is a pic along Sheppard 350 meters from a proposed stop

5oIyaif.jpg



Also, the portion east of Don Mills can be easily handled by LRT. It currently maxes out at around 4,000 PPHD today. Maximum capacity of a surface LRT is 10,000.

Yet you will happily hand over a subway to York region when as of now, there is absolutely nothing there except their promise of massive development... Double standards?

BTW, why wasn't LRT on the radar for York region?
 
What the heck is your point? I don't think you're understanding how transit works at all

You can't just pick at a random spot on the subway map, point out that it has no office development and then use that to justify whatever project you want. To ignore the other contributing factors to the ridership patterns is insanity.

Or course you know this already and are just trying to split hairs.

Isn't it what York region is doing and yet we don't call their plan insane?
 
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It does, but surely most people transferring from the tube at Wimbledon are changing to commuter rail, rather than tramlink. You only have to look at the passenger numbers for Wimbledon station. Tube - 12 million per year. Tramlink - 2 million per year. Commuter rail - 18 million per year.

Unlike Toronto, in a lot of cities, people change to commuter rail at, or near, the end of the subway line. We might see this here one day, at Kipling, Kennedy, Richmond Hill, Downsview Park, Black Creek, etc. The only GO/subway combo that currently has full-day service is Main/Danforth ... it's a shame there isn't a better connection there. I don't think many people realize how short a walk it is. About 300 metres ... about the same as from Union subway station to platform 27 on the south side of Union Station.

The tram and train serve different trips, no? The tram is serving the southern London Suburb, while the trains are serving the communities outside London.

I am just countering Andrew's point that it's unusual to transfer to a different mode in the same corridor. People transfer from subway to buses all the time, why is Light Rail any different?
 
Generally speaking, there are two qualifiers for subways in Toronto:

1. The route passes through or ends in a major high density business district.
and/or
2. The route has dozens of well used bus, LRT or Streetcar feeder routes intersecting it.

Sheppard has neither.
 
I hate that Sheppard East has this major flaw:



It's being sold as a fast LRT when it's a glorified streetcars. Paris is always used as an example and yet, Paris has priority signals and the LRV never waits at an intersection unlike the above. If they wanted to have an LRT, they should have done it right in the first place

The City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission are no longer in charge of the design of the Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT or Eglinton Crosstown LRT. Metrolinx has taken over. Your six year old document is woefully outdated. We know absolutley nothing about the design of Finch West or Sheppard East, with the exception of the general route than the lines will take.

If the design of the ROW Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Metolinx's other projects around the province are any indication, the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs will be quite well executed. Certainly much more than just "glorified streetcars"
 
Glorified streetcars:

- All door boarding
- Higher capacity
- Higher speed
- Separated from traffic
- Fewer stops
- Transit priority

I'd like to know where I can ride these glorified streetcars.
 
Generally speaking, there are two qualifiers for subways in Toronto:

1. The route passes through or ends in a major high density business district.
and/or
2. The route has dozens of well used bus, LRT or Streetcar feeder routes intersecting it.

Sheppard has neither.

Sheppard West Extension

Bathurst Station
-High density residential area
-Bus route: 7

Downsview Station as a Terminal station
-Spadina Line (access downtown, York University and a possible bypass of the Yonge Line for those working around University Ave. or attending school at U of T
-Link to GO Barrie at Downsview Park station
-Bus routes :84-101-104-105-106-107-108-196-ViVA Orange


Sheppard East Extension

Consumers Station
-Was studied for subway extension. LRT was chosen for economic reasons and not ridership reasons although the LRT still needs an underground tunnel to cross the 404
-Important business District

Victoria Park Station
-Bus Route: 24-85-167-169-190-220-VIVA
-High density residential area.


I don't think nobody is advocating for Sheppard to be built before or at the same time as DRL and Yonge. I think those who support the extension pretty much agree that this should come last. At the meantime, BRT be way more cost effective than a billion dollar LRT that will kill any possibility of a future subway extension. Not short term, future.

Sure some will say building an LRT won't stop a subway for being built in the future but that would be a massive waste of money. The ridership is there to Victoria Park. Anything beyond that should be look at again in the future after all of our more pressing priorities are taken cared of.
 
The City of Toronto and the Toronto Transit Commission are no longer in charge of the design of the Finch West LRT, Sheppard East LRT or Eglinton Crosstown LRT. Metrolinx has taken over. Your six year old document is woefully outdated. We know absolutley nothing about the design of Finch West or Sheppard East, with the exception of the general route than the lines will take.

If the design of the ROW Eglinton Crosstown LRT and Metolinx's other projects around the province are any indication, the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs will be quite well executed. Certainly much more than just "glorified streetcars"

Like I said, this has always been my wish, but until then, those documents are all we have and until they are edited, that's what they are. Finch West is fine and Eglinton is great minus Eglinton East being at grade but Sheppard is a bad idea, especially with the project being so unpopular in that area.
 
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Glorified streetcars:

- All door boarding
- Higher capacity
- Higher speed
- Separated from traffic
- Fewer stops
- Transit priority

I'd like to know where I can ride these glorified streetcars.

That's what they are. There's room to make them faster and add priority signals to those line, not have them go through the same cycles as St.Clair. There's room for fewer stops. I'm not against LRT on Finch. I don't get the obsession of building an LRT on Sheppard before everything else.
 
You fully know that people associate streetcars with being slow and extremely unreliable. That's why you insist on falsely equating LRT to streetcars. What you're doing is disingenuous at best. LRTs aren't streetcars. Stop trying to mislead people.
 

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