Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[gweed123]

I'd guess even if they do build the Yonge extension without the DRL, then the unusability of the Yonge line afterward might get us the DRL a lot sooner than if we just sit and wait for them to build it first or at the same time.

That's probably the worst-case scenario that still involves getting the DRL (obviously the worst-case scenario period is that they ever only build the Yonge extension and the Yonge line south of Eglinton is screwed over for generations).

At the very least, I would hope that the DRL is shovel-ready when the Yonge extension opens. That way when it all plays out, and the Yonge line is overwhelmed, people riding it can at least say "ah, so THIS is why we're spending $4+ billion to build a new downtown subway!". If the DRL is shovel-ready by the time the Yonge extension opens, the Yonge extension will be the best ad campaign for the DRL there is. We just have to hope that we don't have to wait another decade until we get it.

 

[gweed123]

It's certainly not pretty now ... I hear lots of stories of people not being able to get on trains.

But I don't think that the real issue is the current situation. The real problem is how much demand is expected to increase over the next 20 years. In particular, the extension of the Yonge subway to Richmond Hill would push it over the top, pushing demand to the point where the line is so over-capacity that capacity would actually decrease.

I did the math on it a couple years ago, and even with the new TRs and the new signaling system, the capacity to usage ratio by 2031 will have only dropped by 3% compared to today. This figure is for the Yonge line south of Bloor by the way.

 

[gweed123]

$2 billion will likely not get you much of a downtown subway line.

People seem to like throwing around subway construction costs as if a km of subway is a km of subway is a km of subway.

Unlike tunneling under empty fields or low rise industrial areas out to Vaughan, there is a heck of a lot more to deal with for the DRL. You've got deep foundations for the office towers, snaking PATH tunnels, decades (centuries?) of sewers, water, and other utilities running all over.

Then once you've figured out how to get your tunnels through, you've got to figure out how to integrate the new stations into the existing infrastructure.

It's all doable and not out of reach technologically, but to think it would be 'easy' or 'cheap', let alone just something that can be tacked on to an extension to Richmond Hill is incredibly naive.

The sooner this gets on more radars and seriously planned, the better. It'll take quite a while to save up those pennies and mop up the gravy to pay for it all.

Just for comparison, Ottawa is building a deep LRT tunnel for ~$320 million per km ($735 million for the tunnel, 2.3 km long). The stations are being built with 120m long platforms.

While the buildings in Downtown Toronto may be taller, the parking garages are at around the same depth. And when you're tunnelling that deep, the PATH is really only an impact to the design of the stations.

Not saying the DRL would cost Toronto the exact same amount, but it just gives you a ballpark estimate, from a city that's doing a pretty similar type of project.

 

[Asterix]

Just for comparison, Ottawa is building a deep LRT tunnel for ~$320 million per km ($735 million for the tunnel, 2.3 km long). The stations are being built with 120m long platforms.

Given how the cost estimations have gone up, I'd be more interested in seeing what their actual cost ends up being.

Helps that Ottawa is going through solid rock and not the soil of Toronto (which has both a high water table and many underground streams).

The deeper you dig your tunnels, the more you need to add to your stations.

The point is that there is a lot of existing underground infrastructure and building a station isn't just a matter of sinking a large hole and then decking it over.

 

[gweed123]

Given how the cost estimations have gone up, I'd be more interested in seeing what their actual cost ends up being.

Helps that Ottawa is going through solid rock and not the soil of Toronto (which has both a high water table and many underground streams).

The deeper you dig your tunnels, the more you need to add to your stations.

The point is that there is a lot of existing underground infrastructure and building a station isn't just a matter of sinking a large hole and then decking it over.

I agree with you. Personally I was surprised when I did the math and I found that the cost was that low. The original pricetag was $735 million for 3.2km of tunnel. It was reduced by 900m after they found silt in Sandy Hill (go figure). Yet the pricetag didn't change.

I suspect at this point they're trying to cut everything they can to stay within that $2.1 billion, because the public is already have a shit-fit at the pricetag.

And with stations as deep as the DRL would need through downtown, they'd need to tunnel the station out. Cut and cover for the whole thing simply wouldn't work.

 

[Rainforest]

$2 billion will likely not get you much of a downtown subway line.

People seem to like throwing around subway construction costs as if a km of subway is a km of subway is a km of subway.

Unlike tunneling under empty fields or low rise industrial areas out to Vaughan, there is a heck of a lot more to deal with for the DRL. You've got deep foundations for the office towers, snaking PATH tunnels, decades (centuries?) of sewers, water, and other utilities running all over.

Then once you've figured out how to get your tunnels through, you've got to figure out how to integrate the new stations into the existing infrastructure.

It's all doable and not out of reach technologically, but to think it would be 'easy' or 'cheap', let alone just something that can be tacked on to an extension to Richmond Hill is incredibly naive.

The sooner this gets on more radars and seriously planned, the better. It'll take quite a while to save up those pennies and mop up the gravy to pay for it all.

2 km under the CBD will be very challenging and costly.

But once it gets east of Church, the per km cost should be similar to Yonge North of Sheppard East.

 

[nfitz]

$2 billion will likely not get you much of a downtown subway line.

At $300 million a kilometre, it would get you from Pape station to Queen station. Which is enough of a relief for Bloor/Yonge to build the Yonge extension.

There would only be some PATH considerations right at Yonge. And you'd tunnel deep enough to miss pretty much everything else. Sure, there's be some extra costs ... but it's $2 to $3 billion ... not $10 billion.

A longer line, north to Eglinton, west to University would be nice ... but you can achieve the minimum goal to let you build the Yonge extension for a lot, lot, less than the $14 billion we are currently dropping on North York and Scarborough for the Sheppard and Eglinton lines.

 

[gweed123]

At $300 million a kilometre, it would get you from Pape station to Queen station. Which is enough of a relief for Bloor/Yonge to build the Yonge extension.

There would only be some PATH considerations right at Yonge. And you'd tunnel deep enough to miss pretty much everything else. Sure, there's be some extra costs ... but it's $2 to $3 billion ... not $10 billion.

A longer line, north to Eglinton, west to University would be nice ... but you can achieve the minimum goal to let you build the Yonge extension for a lot, lot, less than the $14 billion we are currently dropping on North York and Scarborough for the Sheppard and Eglinton lines.

It will be interesting to see what kind of phasing the DRTES proposes. Unlike other subway projects, there are so many different alignments and so many different start and end points to choose from. Eglinton is going to more or less stay on Eglinton (aside from the connection to the SRT). The Yonge line is going to stay on Yonge. But the DRL? Who knows. Downtown to the east side of the City is all we know at this point.

But I agree, you can get a basic DRL for probably just over $2B. You may be able to offset the cost of the deep downtown tunnel by using the rail corridor for a bit as well.

 

[Asterix]

At $300 million a kilometre, it would get you from Pape station to Queen station. Which is enough of a relief for Bloor/Yonge to build the Yonge extension.

You've got to also add more to make the connection to the Danforth line so trains can actually access a yard.

If Queen (or whatever Yonge intersection) is going to be your terminus, are you going to need tail tracks in addition to cross-overs?

It all adds to the infrastructure requirements.

 

[nfitz]

You've got to also add more to make the connection to the Danforth line so trains can actually access a yard.

If Queen (or whatever Yonge intersection) is going to be your terminus, are you going to need tail tracks in addition to cross-overs?

It all adds to the infrastructure requirements.

Which is why I used $300 million a kilometre. At 6 km that only eats about $1.8 billion. Enough money for some tail tracks; the previously proposed alignment allowed for an easy connection to Greenwood yard, so there's that solved.

 

[Chuck]

If Queen (or whatever Yonge intersection) is going to be your terminus, are you going to need tail tracks in addition to cross-overs?

It all adds to the infrastructure requirements.

The TTC just needs to be more flexible in its design standards. The photo below shows the terminus of the Times Square shuttle in New York. With the tracks ending literally in the middle of the concourse level, not only are there no tail tracks, but the platforms are on a gentle bend.

 

[EnviroTO]

The Times Square shuttle is a one train per track operation with two stations. There is no need for two tracks or crossovers because there is no train to pass. The tracks are on a gentle bend because at one point the platform in the foreground wasn't there and the tracks continued to join up to the 7th Ave line.

 

[unimaginative2]

Good point, Chuck.

If you just built the DRL according to the original plan, you wouldn't even have to tunnel a good portion of it. With reasonable cost control, $2 billion should be easily achievable. You could also save a lot of money if you sped things up a little bit and combined the Union station with the second platform project.

 

[nfitz]

There are no TTC tail tracks at Don Mills Station ... they aren't necessary at every terminus.

 

[unimaginative2]

Some kind of arresting system on the same principle as the EMAS on airport runways might make a lot of sense in lieu of tail tracks, especially at termini where no further extension is planned.