Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

[reinventingthewheel]

I think the funny part is how people will complain it takes far too long to process, suggesting we just do xyz…

Then goes on to be critical about a particular option, as if that’s NOT why it takes forever to make a decision.

Off the top of my head, things to think about:

1. Cost
2. Durability
3. Transport/install
4. Does it fit the surroundings?
5. What kind of vehicle can it take an impact from
6. How easy/cheap is it to maintain
7. Placement (effectiveness, accessibility)
8. City bylaws?
9. Risk assessment, how could people hurt themselves on it and what liability would the city hold? How do we mitigate

Now, figure a lot of information is out there already. Is it readily accessible and reliable?Are the people making the decisions experienced, or new to this? Was there turnover in the dept or is the responsibility now in another dept? Is there budget pressure? Councillor problems? Stakeholder meetings? Union Station input? Do cab drivers have an issue with placement? Etc etc.

I see this stuff like trying to organize a pizza party for 20 kids. For all your best intentions and ideas you just end up with pepperoni and extra cheese.

Yes there are many design criteria, this is always implied. It does not excuse the time taken to deliver this. From this extraordinary planning time it is natural to expect something flawless.

It’s more like a pizza order where you waited several hours so you expected something gourmet but all you got was a frozen pizza.

If we don’t ridicule this for being unideal and delivered too slow, then we are excusing the city and other agencies to repeat that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes there are many design criteria, this is always implied. It does not excuse the time taken to deliver this. From this extraordinary planning time it is natural to expect something flawless.

It’s more like a pizza order where you waited several hours so you expected something gourmet but all you got was a frozen pizza.

And rest assured, the bill will be that of gourmet pizza.

AoD

 

[CapitalSeven]

Let's celebrate this twenty-year story of success. Twenty years you ask? This from a 2011 presentation doc on the plan to make this a barrier-free plaza:

Why does the year 2004 ring a bell in your head? Same year as Transit First, the plan to bring streetcars to the east waterfront before any development took place. Another Toronto Triumph!

 

[daptive]

I think the funny part is how people will complain it takes far too long to process, suggesting we just do xyz…

Then goes on to be critical about a particular option, as if that’s NOT why it takes forever to make a decision.

Off the top of my head, things to think about:

1. Cost
2. Durability
3. Transport/install
4. Does it fit the surroundings?
5. What kind of vehicle can it take an impact from
6. How easy/cheap is it to maintain
7. Placement (effectiveness, accessibility)
8. City bylaws?
9. Risk assessment, how could people hurt themselves on it and what liability would the city hold? How do we mitigate

Now, figure a lot of information is out there already. Is it readily accessible and reliable?Are the people making the decisions experienced, or new to this? Was there turnover in the dept or is the responsibility now in another dept? Is there budget pressure? Councillor problems? Stakeholder meetings? Union Station input? Do cab drivers have an issue with placement? Etc etc.

I see this stuff like trying to organize a pizza party for 20 kids. For all your best intentions and ideas you just end up with pepperoni and extra cheese.

Respectfully, if you think all that consulting takes 7 years you should get a job at Deloitte, they’d love your billable hours.

Much more complicated projects have been built in less time with way more considerations.

 

[xmyth_]

Yes there are many design criteria, this is always implied. It does not excuse the time taken to deliver this. From this extraordinary planning time it is natural to expect something flawless.

It’s more like a pizza order where you waited several hours so you expected something gourmet but all you got was a frozen pizza.

If we don’t ridicule this for being unideal and delivered too slow, then we are excusing the city and other agencies to repeat that.

I just want the city to hand over a single project or issue to commenters here, and see how quick folks come to a consensus for a perfect solution.

Folks here (including myself) are always “too long!” then “all wrong” - and I just think it’s funny that we complain about length of process while also suggesting more research should have been done.

 

[xmyth_]

Respectfully, if you think all that consulting takes 7 years you should get a job at Deloitte, they’d love your billable hours.

Much more complicated projects have been built in less time with way more considerations.

Have you ever been part of a corporate environment trying to design a single button for an app?

Oh sure there’s bloat and waste in processes- but the overthinking in design and planning can be stultifying, and that’s even before you focus group something or run a beta.

7 years is ridiculous, but who knows who got in the way? Maybe it was Deloitte, maybe it was any number of activists or stakeholders.

I just hate the way we all viscerally react, cuz that’s how we get our own DOGE (actually, isn’t that how we got Doug? That sure worked out well)



As an aside, was anyone else a participant in that civicTO community group a decade ago? It may still be running but I lost track.

Tech minded folks got together to hear presentations and break into groups to discuss project ideas on how to help the city? I think the guy who ran the city website was a regular attendee.

In any case, a room full of smart, motivated, urban minded folks bashing about ideas… aaand I’m unsure if anything meaningful came out of it.

My point here is that processes are hard, the more people are involved or effected the more difficult it gets.

And we can keep complaining or try and find a new approach to the matter.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

I just want the city to hand over a single project or issue to commenters here, and see how quick folks come to a consensus for a perfect solution.

Folks here (including myself) are always “too long!” then “all wrong” - and I just think it’s funny that we complain about length of process while also suggesting more research should have been done.

I agree there are definitely some individuals who echo these complaints without a full appreciation of the exhaustive processes involved.

 

[Adjei]

Let's celebrate this twenty-year story of success. Twenty years you ask? This from a 2011 presentation doc on the plan to make this a barrier-free plaza:

View attachment 645853
Why does the year 2004 ring a bell in your head? Same year as Transit First, the plan to bring streetcars to the east waterfront before any development took place. Another Toronto Triumph!

This is what should have been done instead of the crap we are getting now.

 

[xmyth_]

Dunno if her domain extends to the sidewalk but…

 

[daptive]

Have you ever been part of a corporate environment trying to design a single button for an app?

Oh sure there’s bloat and waste in processes- but the overthinking in design and planning can be stultifying, and that’s even before you focus group something or run a beta.

7 years is ridiculous, but who knows who got in the way? Maybe it was Deloitte, maybe it was any number of activists or stakeholders.

I just hate the way we all viscerally react, cuz that’s how we get our own DOGE (actually, isn’t that how we got Doug? That sure worked out well)



As an aside, was anyone else a participant in that civicTO community group a decade ago? It may still be running but I lost track.

Tech minded folks got together to hear presentations and break into groups to discuss project ideas on how to help the city? I think the guy who ran the city website was a regular attendee.

In any case, a room full of smart, motivated, urban minded folks bashing about ideas… aaand I’m unsure if anything meaningful came out of it.

My point here is that processes are hard, the more people are involved or effected the more difficult it gets.

And we can keep complaining or try and find a new approach to the matter.

Literally yes. I am a tech consultant. And I’ve also done government work.

I‘ll give you this I doubt 7 years worth of work was actually put into this solution. I could see it being a fraction of that time with a lot of that time actually being on the back burner.

But that’s also part of what people are frustrated about, low hanging fruit just sitting on the shelf.

 

[xmyth_]

Literally yes. I am a tech consultant. And I’ve also done government work.

I‘ll give you this I doubt 7 years worth of work was actually put into this solution. I could see it being a fraction of that time with a lot of that time actually being on the back burner.

But that’s also part of what people are frustrated about, low hanging fruit just sitting on the shelf.

I think even if it’s Internet forums, we could stand to change the discourse. How to do that widely? Eh. Beats me. But lord knows all the bad stuff that gave us DOGE emanated online.

The one story I loathe so hard from recent years is the old guy who built the staircase beside the soccer field. The one that got front cover of the Sun and became a whole thing. Not just because everyone who was pissed at govt inaction cheered it, but because it likely disrupted a bunch of other projects who were nearing their own start/end dates - which got bumped because Tory etc had to quell a PR mess.

Which is a whole other factor we have to consider.

I imagine they had a limited budget that kept getting eaten away at, priorities probably changed with councils, turnover at the employee level, contractors and suppliers moved on or gone under - and they could afford to keep pushing it back because they already had the jersey barriers in place that performed the necessary job.

And for all we know, they run this stuff on Jira

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Dunno if her domain extends to the sidewalk but…View attachment 645938

Her role is most likely just to do with making sure that the TTC part of union station is clean and well maintained. The station mangers were something that Andy Byford brought over from London.

 

[evandyk]

I imagine they had a limited budget that kept getting eaten away at, priorities probably changed with councils, turnover at the employee level, contractors and suppliers moved on or gone under - and they could afford to keep pushing it back because they already had the jersey barriers in place that performed the necessary job.

As far as I know, nobody has really bothered to explain what the "necessary job" is. Sure it's a high traffic pedestrian area, but there are many places all through Toronto that have pedestrian volumes as high or higher and we don't protect them all. Why was this plaza singled out? And the one thing that has never been apparent: were aesthetics considered as part of the requirements?

 

[evandyk]

Her role is most likely just to do with making sure that the TTC part of union station is clean and well maintained. The station mangers were something that Andy Byford brought over from London.

Or in the case of the Yonge/Bloor station manager, to unlock the washrooms upon request. It appears that due to the dominant use of the washrooms as washing up facilities for people with no resources to do it elsewhere, they closed them permanently (there's a sign on the locked door telling you to contact the station manager for access).

 

[WB62]

Or in the case of the Yonge/Bloor station manager, to unlock the washrooms upon request. It appears that due to the dominant use of the washrooms as washing up facilities for people with no resources to do it elsewhere, they closed them permanently (there's a sign on the locked door telling you to contact the station manager for access).

I used the washrooms at Bloor-Yonge 3 days ago and they were unlocked and ready to use without having to ask anyone