Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

Apparently the TTC will be reviewing the situation.
Screenshot_2024-01-02_114815.jpg
 
honestly what really can they do? when you have what has to be upwards of hundreds of thousands of people filling into a single subway station at the exact same time, what are the options? you close the doors? but then dont you have crowd crush danger anyway against those closed doors?
 
generalcanada said:
honestly what really can they do? when you have what has to be upwards of hundreds of thousands of people filling into a single subway station at the exact same time, what are the options? you close the doors? but then dont you have crowd crush danger anyway against those closed doors?
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Close the doors to allow the crowds to dissipate.

Once things die down, let more people in. Honestly, once people see they are not getting in they will disperse.
 
Richard White said:
Close the doors to allow the crowds to dissipate.

Once things die down, let more people in. Honestly, once people see they are not getting in they will disperse.
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you think people are by default smart? youre just going to end up with people pushing to the front no matter who they piss off. ive seen it happen
 
generalcanada said:
you think people are by default smart? youre just going to end up with people pushing to the front no matter who they piss off. ive seen it happen
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Crowd control 101. Limit the number of people into a given area by restricting access. You don't make things better by letting more people in.
 
generalcanada said:
honestly what really can they do? when you have what has to be upwards of hundreds of thousands of people filling into a single subway station at the exact same time, what are the options? you close the doors? but then dont you have crowd crush danger anyway against those closed doors?
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This is what they were doing. This is why you see all of these crowds outside of the stations, not inside on the platforms.

I had to wait 20 minutes before being allowed down to the platform at King Station on Sunday night. Once down there, I was able to hop on the first train.

Dan
 
smallspy said:
This is what they were doing. This is why you see all of these crowds outside of the stations, not inside on the platforms.

I had to wait 20 minutes before being allowed down to the platform at King Station on Sunday night. Once down there, I was able to hop on the first train.

Dan
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I saw a video of people being stuffed into the trains with thousands on the platform. id highly doubt that happened at union, King station maybe i can see
 
generalcanada said:
I saw a video of people being stuffed into the trains with thousands on the platform. id highly doubt that happened at union, King station maybe i can see
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It did happen at Union, there’s videos of staff opening and closing the doors, letting only a specific amount of people in
 
So, we now have a better picture of what happened at Union on NYE:


Right at 12:30am, at peak traffic, a fight erupted on a subway train.

The response to the security incident including de-boarding all the passengers on that full Line 1 train back onto a busy platform and taking the incident train out of service.

When this happened, TTC staff terminated access to both that platform and Union (subway) station temporarily. This contributed to that backup seen in the GO concourse.

The total delay (no NB train, Union access restricted) was 10 minutes, but if that's equal to 2 -3 crush loaded trains, that's several thousand extra people.

The impact also would have been felt upstream/downstream at other Line 1 stations.

****

The incident certainly explains a great deal; but I do think it's not a catch-all excuse.

Clearly, there is/was very little slack capacity in service to absorb what was a relatively minor incident. There is also next to no slack capacity in the buildings in question, particularly the TTC portion of Union Station.

This is a real issue.

A future Ontario Line might shave some TTC related crowding; but I think the TTC needs to plan for a higher level of service and to have gap trains in reserve to offset any issues that may arise.

GO needs more service as well.

I don't think there's any good solution to the capacity constraints of TTC Union, which has already been enlarged; though perhaps a review to see if there's any m2 that can be squeezed out when the WWERT work is finally done would be worthwhile.

Union itself (GO/VIA) is another problem. The South Concourse may help, but GO is going to have to get its throughput and service levels well up. This is planned of course, but theory must shift to practice sooner rather than later.

Finally, the fact that the fight and the out of service train are only really coming to light more than a day later is suggestive of fairly poor communication in which many riders were unaware of the problem; not a new story there, but one for which excuses must end, and better results must be delivered.
 
Northern Light said:
So, we now have a better picture of what happened at Union on NYE:


Right at 12:30am, at peak traffic, a fight erupted on a subway train.

The response to the security incident including de-boarding all the passengers on that full Line 1 train back onto a busy platform and taking the incident train out of service.

When this happened, TTC staff terminated access to both that platform and Union (subway) station temporarily. This contributed to that backup seen in the GO concourse.

The total delay (no NB train, Union access restricted) was 10 minutes, but if that's equal to 2 -3 crush loaded trains, that's several thousand extra people.

The impact also would have been felt upstream/downstream at other Line 1 stations.

****

The incident certainly explains a great deal; but I do think it's not a catch-all excuse.

Clearly, there is/was very little slack capacity in service to absorb what was a relatively minor incident. There is also next to no slack capacity in the buildings in question, particularly the TTC portion of Union Station.

This is a real issue.

A future Ontario Line might shave some TTC related crowding; but I think the TTC needs to plan for a higher level of service and to have gap trains in reserve to offset any issues that may arise.

GO needs more service as well.

I don't think there's any good solution to the capacity constraints of TTC Union, which has already been enlarged; though perhaps a review to see if there's any m2 that can be squeezed out when the WWERT work is finally done would be worthwhile.

Union itself (GO/VIA) is another problem. The South Concourse may help, but GO is going to have to get its throughput and service levels well up. This is planned of course, but theory must shift to practice sooner rather than later.

Finally, the fact that the fight and the out of service train are only really coming to light more than a day later is suggestive of fairly poor communication in which many riders were unaware of the problem; not a new story there, but one for which excuses must end, and better results must be delivered.
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I am not clear about why a fight on a train resulted in the train being taken out of service. Blood? Crime Scene? Staff traumatised?
 
DSC said:
I am not clear about why a fight on a train resulted in the train being taken out of service. Blood? Crime Scene? Staff traumatised?
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The piece didn't say, though I gather this is standard policy.
 
Northern Light said:
The piece didn't say, though I gather this is standard policy.
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Maybe, but why? When someone says 'standard practice' I am reminded of the British Army investigation of why there were always two soldiers at a 'cannon' who appeared to have no job to do, others aimed, fired and moved it. After much study they found that they were 'to hold the horses' heads' so they did not bolt. The army had not used horses for over 50 years!
 
so on a hypothetical level how many trains per hour can they send in 1 direction assuming the same type of "hundreds of thousands leave at the exact same time". Times when you can prepare weeks in advance.

Ttc said they had extra staffing, but thats only part of it, you have to have enough trains too right?
Can they just run trains like at crawl speeds back to back?
 
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