Willybru21
Active Member
Oh okay, I thought you meant something different. It’s about time they started implementing it
Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR
MisterF
Senior Member
The T would make sense for rapid transit stations across the GTA. But they're using it for bus stops too which makes it confusing and not useful. An agency logo isn't useful either because it doesn't tell you what type of transit it is, just who operates it.
Northern Light
Superstar
Well, sure, I suppose, I would equate GO, in general, to Regional Rail, but they do operate buses; I think the geographic coverage of an agency is relevant info; do you want to travel in Toronto, to Niagara?, to Brampton?
I would agree w/the suggestion of @DSC above that you could add a pictorgram of a train/subway/bus if desired.
But I tend to think there is a level of infantilization of ridership/customers going on.
I mean, I've traveled all over Europe, and the U.S. and Canada, in my travels, I rarely recall a T or any other universal symbology.
I require agency or mode specific icons, and I rarely had any difficulty navigating, including in places English was not universal.
A lot of my travel goes back to the guidebook era, and before google maps on your phone, before transit apps, before google translate. etc.
I'm not sure we can ever put enough info to please those who are sure everyone is a hapless dolt.
Last edited:
Deadpool X
Senior Member
I don't understand the rationale behind putting the T logo. People can obviously see if it's a bus stop or a station, it is meant for transit, not for unloading trucks. You don't have to tell people they can get transit from a bus or subway station. Just tell what type of transit and which line they can get.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
nobdy outside of metrolink and the wayfinding expert they hired undestands it. Out of all the bus stops i have seen in places either in pictures or in poerson in other cities, the TTC ones are the most reconsiable as you dn't have to look up above you to find it. I relly don't undsterd hpw [p undsestand how pple think having waht looks like a street sign is beter then a clrelry defined pole in the clours of the transit agency stand out so much more.. It's like with the roundel for transport for london its reconasable wher at a random leter T that nobody outside of one organizatin actull know what it's for ist't helpfull.
MisterF
Senior Member
The problem is that an agency logo doesn't actually have any useful information, like what type of transit you're going to get. The TTC logo could mean anything from a subway to a bus to a streetcar to their corporate offices. With Montreal's down arrow signs or Ottawa's O signs, you know exactly what you're getting. When people travel to these cities they generally don't know or care what the agency is called. They just want to be able to easily find a mass transit station.
That's just it though, our current system often doesn't tell you what type of transit there is. Take this entrance to Sheppard-Yonge station for example. If you don't know the system, you can tell that it's run by the TTC, its name, two routes that use it, and that there are buses. There's nothing that tells you that it's a subway station.
Northern Light
Superstar
Again have to disagree here. It tells you this is the local system for area 'x' or this is the regional system; that is useful info.
I'm not buying, sorry. A typical TTC bus stop does not have iconic logo associated w/the subway system. There is the odd streetcar loop. But regardless.......
I don't know I've just never found it difficult in my travels to figure out the the difference between a Tube Station and a bus stop and a British Rail station.
Nor have I found it challenging to distinguish U-Bahn and S-Bahn
Or the Paris Metro and RER.
I don't doubt there are confused people out there, but I'm not sure more signage is the solution to their challenge (said w/o snark)
Got to disagree here. If you're a tourist or a local, you ought to know if you need to use Line 1 to go somewhere. Any trip planning App will refer to Line 1 or route 20 etc etc.
I think it's perfectly clear, but if you want to tack a subway pictogram on, sure.
I mean NY is full of alphabet soup and people function just fine.
Last edited:
MisterF
Senior Member
Rarely does the average person learn the name of the agencies running transit systems. Instead they learn to look for an M or a T or something along those lines.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Every TTC bus and streetcar stop has the iconic TTC logo. This one for example. Sure, it's smaller than what you usually see at subway stations but even that isn't universal - lots of signs pointing to the subway feature a simple small TTC logo.
That's because none of those cities use the agency logos to identify transit stations and they don't use the same logo for different types of transit. Tube stations are identified by the iconic roundel, bus stops and British Rail stations aren't. French and German cities use an M and a U respectively for their metros but not for bus stops or regional systems. And they certainly don't use the names of the agencies that run them.
Maybe, but before you can find Line 1 you need to find a station. And that's where consistent and unique signage for rapid transit is so useful.
New York is well known for stubbornly sticking to old ways while most other systems have moved on to more universal standards. They're an exception to the rule. And this isn't due to signage specifically, but I found the NYC subway a lot more confusing to navigate than the tube in London.
Willybru21
Active Member
The T logo that Metrolinx designed was supposed to unify all the transit brands under one symbol, in the concept art this involved putting multiple agencies logos on one sign underneath the T, however where the T has been implemented so far this has not been the case. If Metrolinx goes full on does implement the T as it was designed, this sort of nonsense seen here won’t happen anymore:
Northern Light
Superstar
On the above, let's begin with, I hope, the universal agreement that that looks completely and utterly awful, and as if done by a complete bunch of amateurs who didn't care.
Let me then add, I don't see adding a giant T as solving anything in the above. Given all the endless pictograms of buses, I think, I hope, most people could in fact discern this to be a bus stop.
What information do you then need?
1) What routes stop here?
2) Where do those routes go?
3) When is the next bus coming.?
***
Do you need agency logos? Well, I don't know exactly which stop this is, but between all the agencies we have, I'm confident we have overlapping route numbers, which route 15 would you like? They are in different areas, go different places, and may even cost different fares, and they certainly don't all serve this stop.
So I would say yes, you do need agency logos, as you want to differentiate TTC route 15, from GO route 15, from YRT route 15 and so on.
But they certainly don't all need to be on their own signs/poles. It's hardly difficult come up with a more unified design than that. I would frankly like to see LED screens at every single stop for next vehicles, and it's easy
enough to include a fair bit of info on each line:
Next Vehicle System - Current Day and Date, Current Time
Wait (in minutes) Departure Time, Agency, Route, Destination
5M 14:30 TTC 15 Utopia
We can nitpick the details/appearance, but really that's what you're looking for. An interactive LCD Map that would allow you to see the route maps and directions of travel would be nice as well.
A single pylon carrying each agency logo, be it digital or old-school signage would be fine for distance-based visibility.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
LemonCondo
Active Member
If we are talking bus signs let me post this recent Uytae Lee joint:
EnviroTO
Senior Member
It isn't the addition of a "T" that solves a problem, it is a common and shared standard that provides the right information in an easy to understand format at the moment you need it to make the right decision on which way to go. I don't think there is any confusion between seeing a T on a large building and a T of a bus stop where there are no shelters... the building is going to be a hub that likely has a number of connections, and the bus stop is likely to lead you in a single direction to a place you can probably make a connection but you need to know what direction you are traveling.
Transit agency logos are not that helpful except when route numbers are non-unique, and non unique route numbers are easy to fix.
Transit agency logos are not that helpful except when route numbers are non-unique, and non unique route numbers are easy to fix.
Dan416
Senior Member
I like the signs he created but the big problem isn't the usage of the buses, but the fact that bus routes often change and the sheer number of bus stops that would have to have signs created for.
That said, there must be a better way.
T3G
Senior Member
Ha! Never mind alphabet soup, NY has tons of stations with the same name and people function just fine. Here, we balk at the thought of Eglinton station retaining its extant name instead of being renamed to Eglinton-Yonge, lest it cause confusion.
What are you proposing? I dearly hope it's not to renumber those non-unique routes.