CDL.TO
Moderator
Also, on a typical day there are more people headed in the direction of Bay and Yonge than there are headed in the direction of York and University, as well as the fact that PATH still feeds into the Bay concourse.
Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR
TOareaFan
Superstar
yep.....for all of the reasons you (and a wee bit me) give....I don't see a significant shift to York until it is forced in the fall.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
- The York underground PATH connections are still under construction too
- New TTC connection will connect to the lower level, requiring people to go through a clutter-free wide hall in the retail level (about 40 or 50 feet wide, I think -- the hall is the span of three track pillars -- about twice the width of the hallway in RBC PATH) to the escalators/stairs that goes up to the middle of Bay concourse. The stairs will be eliminated in the Bay-side moat, as a level connection between TTC PATH and retail concourse.
It's a straight level shot -- you'll even see the Bay concourse escalators all the way from the TTC Union PATH exits (through new glass doors of the moat). But if you stare towards the right, people will notice the mega-sized food court/restaurant establishments, and flow in that direction too, as there's also a wide east-west hallway in the new basement retail level, which serves as fast connections between the two concourses, while presenting temptations to commuters. This is evident on the retail map layout. The TTC-Concourse connection will be much faster to both Bay *AND* York concourses.
However, one must wonder how busy Union needs to be in order to sustain a 135,000 square foot retail level. Toronto certianly can bring all that poeple, but it will definitely need a massive increase in commuters since we're essentially going to get about 6x the amount of "waiting commuter space" (3x GO concourse space + brand new retail), so commuter density inside Union may actually fall dramatically temporarily until GO RER deployment. This should help make GO RER an uncancellable project, or we're "wasting Union's potential".
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TOareaFan
Superstar
^I have been, and remain, a skeptic with regards to the success of that retail.
I have heard people talk about all the commuters that will now be using the place and the volumes of people that ReR will bring.
The alternative view of that is that, on average, people wait/dwell times at union will decrease. If there are trains every 15 minutes people will not be hanging around Union.......if someone, today, tries to catch (for example) the 5:45 pm KW line train and arrives just a tad late...they will be hanging around Union for 1 hour til the next train....they may shop......in the future if they miss that train, the next one leaves in 15 minutes and they will just go to the platform and get on it. Not much shopping time there.
I have heard people talk about all the commuters that will now be using the place and the volumes of people that ReR will bring.
The alternative view of that is that, on average, people wait/dwell times at union will decrease. If there are trains every 15 minutes people will not be hanging around Union.......if someone, today, tries to catch (for example) the 5:45 pm KW line train and arrives just a tad late...they will be hanging around Union for 1 hour til the next train....they may shop......in the future if they miss that train, the next one leaves in 15 minutes and they will just go to the platform and get on it. Not much shopping time there.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Or if there is a train every 15 minutes the it's not a big problem to intentionally miss a train to do some shopping.
C'mon TOaF. There's gotta be a reason why every major train station in Europe is practically a shopping mall these days.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
If it's the right retail mix, they should have no problem in that location. Don't forget that South Core has a large concentration of offices, as well as residential. CityPlace and the rest of the financial district is also nearby. People will walk to Union to shop if there are stores that people want. I can imagine this space being pretty busy during the day and well into the evening rush hour (Especially during the lunch period when thousands of people leave want to leave their desks). On weekends and evenings it will probably be much slower, however, Harbourfront, South Core and CityPlace all lack retail, so I wouldn't be surprised if people made the trip to Union.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Look, I said I am skeptical....that's all....I have my doubts that it will be any more than a glorified lunch place like so many we see along the path.....I may be wrong (hope I am) and I am not pronouncing it a failure before it starts....I am just skeptical.
the lemur
Senior Member
The seats got their own press release:
http://www.landmark.crozier.ca/late...ansit-bench-unveiled-at-new-go-york-concourse
I actually like them from a design perspective, but the message they convey is definitely 'Don't get too comfortable here'.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I like the seats better than the seats in the Bay concourse, but I guess not everyone sees them as an improvement.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
If trains came by every 15 mins I would be more willing to miss a train or two, to get dinner or a couple of grocery ingredients out of the way, as it is a timesaver if the Union retail is as nice and quick as I hope it will be.
TOareaFan
Superstar
That is one possibility.......on the other hand, I would bet most (not all) of the people going to Union to catch a train to the burbs have their dinner partner at the other end of the trip. Not a lot of "Hey honey/dear, don't make me dinner I am gonna grab a bite at union and get the next train home" calls going to happen.
Look, as I said, I may be wrong....it may end up be this thronging hive of activity with people casually shopping and dining without a care in the world knowing that there will always be another train.......on the other hand there may be a whole bunch of people that previously would have had 1/2 - 1 hour waits that now just know if they go up to the platform the next train will be leaving in a few minutes.
The truth will likely be a balance of the two....as I said, from my POV it will be skewed to the latter...I get that others think I am wrong.....let's see.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Agree about the truth being likely a balance of the two, though I think it will lean towards profitability at Union. Bigger profitability during the 15-minute era than the 30-minute era, in my opinion, since the 15-minute era will double people at Union (by ~2031) and dramatically increase offpeak people at Union. I feel Union businesses may struggle somewhat between 2018-2023 during offpeak, then much more successful when the first several 15-min electricified routes comes online, bringing more all-day business.
So for 2018-2023 pre-RER time frame, adertising will be important, e.g. surrounding condos and offices becoming aware of Union as a brand new shopping mall, etc. At 135,000 square feet, it becomes one of the largest non-Eaton malls on the PATH network, and warrants itself becoming a destination for non-commuters. This can make or break the businesses. Especially as a brand new lunch hangout, as the lunch demand in the dense skyscraper core is currently insatiable at the present, with lots electing to eat at desks only because they don't feel like hunting down a seat or standing in long lines.
I agree that not all Union tenants may succeed (e.g. an out-of-the-way clothes store in the corner might not succeed as well as a coffeeshop). There are many business ideas that could work; a nice chocolate shop (gifts), a nice "unusual toys" shop (gifts), etc.
Also when I am leaving sufficiently early enough to eat dinner at home, my partner asks me to stop at the supermarket for two or three dinner ingredients. So I have to often go stop and go to a supermarket checkout during my drive home from Aldershot. If I can more efficiently quickly pick up something first at Union (with faster pickup than the suburban supermarket parking-checkout hassle), then I'm going to do that even if it misses one 15-minute cycle (and sometimes I might not miss a train at all picking up a couple of groceries, especially if I have 12 minutes before the next train, knowing the trains progressively get less crowded towards the end of peak). It is much faster and more efficient use of my time for my sweetie to get dinner done more quickly. So I am thrilled about a market opening at Union as in the shorter months I often miss the sunset while having to pick up an ingredient or two after my ride... would rather see that at home...
And then, if lineups become too long at Union that it's faster for me to go to the suburban supermarket instead, then I can call it success at Union if it makes me want to go to No Frills or Fortino's instead...
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Personally, I'd be more inclined to get food to go at Union (a sub, a burger, some ice cream, etc), but do my grocery shopping and stuff at the other end, assuming those facilities are there. Bringing groceries home with me on a packed rush hour train just doesn't seem too convenient. Another thing I'd personally do at Union is meet my friends for a beer before or after a sporting event.
nfitz
Superstar
The cat litter and a box of Tide ... no. But I frequently grab groceries near the office, or near the subway station at my house, on the way home. The car only comes out for the big shops.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I'm not talking about a full grocery shop, but buying TWO OR THREE ITEMS (e.g. ingredients or meat), as I wrote in my message. An Angus steak for the BBQ, or a bag of premium stir-fry vegetables. All of that easily fit inside a tote bag slipped into my backpack, and safely stay cool/insulated long enough for the journey (and it is no worse than putting meat on kitchen counter for an hour waiting on BBQed anyway!). Even a carton of milk or coffeecream stays below Health Canada recommended coldness in the insulated pouch of my backpack (normally designed to keep travel mug hot) for a whole 1.5 hour commute. It's not rocket science, buddies...
Do you want to drive one block off your path to home, into a supermarket parking lot, walk further to the food than you would have at Union, find the items, line up in a checkout line, and buy the items, taking far more time than quickly picking up the items at Union if it was a much shorter detour, and a much shorter lineup? I feel Union food retail will quickly fill up during peak until the equilibrium is reached (lineups sufficiently long enough to prefer the pre-dinner-supermarket-visit 2-item hassle).
If a Union market is empty, then it's super convenient to spend only 60 seconds grabbing a couple of Certified Angus steaks for the BBQ at home. Ask for it, tap Interac, and go. Bam! Done! NOW.... If Union has long lineups for food (success accomplished), then, sure, I'll prefer the supermarket-detour-just-for-two-items-parkinglot-checkout-hassle at the far end of my GO train. Just like empty freeways WILL get used and get congested, Union suparmarket WILL get used, until it is no longer convenient. The point of equlibrium, obviously, is up for debate, but I can guarantee you that Union markets will be profitable -- at least during the RER era (2023+) and probably before that (given sufficient advertising in the area to boast new establishments). That's why markets are successful in European train stations, running RER-frequency trains. They are huge timesavers, just like freeways, up to the "congestion" its-no-longer-convenient point.
Knowing that peak period trains at Union become progressively less crowded after 5pm if you miss one train? For example, my 5:37pm Lakeshore West express often always lets me sit down, unlike the 5:00pm express. And there's almost never standees on my 6:30pm express (except in certain coaches which I avoid), and if I miss that one, there's the 6:43 allstop I can catch. Then thereafter, a train every half hour. Lakeshore West has 8 trains in one hour today from 4:45pm to 5:45pm (a train every 7.5 minutes!) and I have sat on every single one of them assuming I board at least 5 minutes prior, and I can assure you, that missing 1 train actually works in my favour. Over the years, the extra trains they added to Lakeshore West peak has made them ever slightly slightly less crowded than say, the Milton peak trains.
You unlucky Kitcheners, Miltonians and Richmond Hillers need to learn from lucky Lakeshore Westers
who actually are now getting a sneak preview of RER-era frequencies today, at least during peak. Unlike you, I see crowd patterns that happens to a RER-frequency situation. Unlike you, I no longer have to run to my train (unless it's after 6:43pm and I don't want to wait half an hour) and often I grab something because I prefer to board the next train a few minutes early, rather than board a standing-room-only train at the last minute. So you see, I have access to RER frequencies today with 8 trains per hour in my direction on Lakeshore West. I lament the fact that my spouse asked me to pick up a refrigerated pack of fresh soft linguini/fettuccini or fish or chicken or steak, and I have both an 8 and a 14 minute wait till my next train, dreading the 17 to 35 minute detour I'll now have to take (2 min drive, 1 min parking lot, 5 min grocery shop (sometimes 15+ if I have to wait a long time at busy deli counter), 2-10 min checkout (lineup dependant), 3 min return to home route). If I can just go to a St. Lawrence Marketplace place less than 100 meters from my GOtrain berth, with multiple delis, some with zero lineups -- I choose the shop with the quickest lineup -- and bam -- instant convert. I arrive home up to half an hour earlier AND with organic non-antibiotic zero-hormone butcher counter meat for the BBQ plus also the sun is still up above the treeline at our home. See???
Now that said and out of the way.....
.....I can relate. I actually meant no offense to the Kitchener/Milton/Richmond Hill users -- I know it's a grind -- and a long ride especially if you hopped on the last train of the day and you only got standing room. Grumble. I know! -- But you know, fewer Lakeshore West trains are catastrophically intolerably overcrowded as yesterday, thanks to the extra numbers of trains they've added after the Lakeshore corridor expansions several years ago, and the AD2W 30-minute. You'll get the same experience too eventually; hang in there for a few years (or a decade, depending on route). I feel I am justified in predicting convenience factors with commuters, based on my experience at various train stations around the world. The freeway analogy is accurate. There is enough demand in a fast-growing downtown-core and Union station, to unlock commuter demand for things like a grocery item or two, though it may not be till the RER electricified era and far higher Union passenger traffic, when the whole footprint of 135,000 square foot retail stabilizes in a sustainable retail mix, ferretting out the failed stores and ideas (e.g. out-of-the-way niche stores, poorly reviewed food establishments, and/or not directly on a PATH route or route to either concourse), while strengthening the immediately successful businesses (e.g. market, certain restaurants, most places in the food court, etc).
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