Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[dowlingm]

I think one important thing to consider, which hasnt been discussed is the capacity of UPX.

It's not like Metrolinx has tons of DMUs lying around, and Nippon Sharyo is no longer manufacturing the vehicle in North America. So the fact that Metrolinx wants to open up all these additional stations, which is going to be additional demand on the existing fleet which cant be expanded is concerning, to say the least.

Nippon Sharyo will probably ship from Japan if Metrolinx want to pay. Without details of what Metrolinx hope to get from the guideway engineering study it’s difficult to be sure what their plan is

 

[Townie]

When the Woodbine Station opens that is when changes to the current UPX stops needs to be change.

As far I am concern regardless it may mean an extra transfer for some riders that UPX stops would be Airport, Woodbine, Eglinton, Bloor and Union. Woodbine is needed to allow riders from the west to get to the airport or from it tnen to back track from Eglinton adding extra travel time.

Those getting on/off at other station will have access using GO service to get to/from an UPX station.

Been on trains in Europe that go to the airport and most made all stops from the city centre to the airport. Trying to recall who had non stop service between the 2 points and coming up blank at this time.

The London Heathrow Express is 15 minutes nonstop from Heathrow Airport to Paddington Station. It's not cheap. The new Elizabeth Line trains, at less than half the cost, make same trip in 27 minutes with stops in between. The Elizabeth Line trains also serve more terminals within Heathrow and, at the City end, continue further past Paddington into central London.

 

[dob467]

Why exactly is Woodbine Station so needed?

 

[Bordercollie]

The London Heathrow Express is 15 minutes nonstop from Heathrow Airport to Paddington Station. It's not cheap. The new Elizabeth Line trains, at less than half the cost, make same trip in 27 minutes with stops in between. The Elizabeth Line trains also serve more terminals within Heathrow and, at the City end, continue further past Paddington into central London.

Not every train needs to stop at every station. They could stagger is so that there are express trips at the top of the hour to get people to the airport faster. But that does mean that the train needs to layover for longer to makeup for the time difference.

 

[Bojaxs]

Why exactly is Woodbine Station so needed?

Ontario goverment wants to whisk gamblers to the casino and race track.

 

[crs1026]

Why exactly is Woodbine Station so needed?

It was perceived as a better location for a broader catchment area than Etobicoke North. (I'm not saying I agree, but that was the stated rationale)

Also has been argued to have better potential as a transit hub and connectivity point, assuming Finch LRT is extended and this becomes the transfer point between the Kitchener line and Pearson Airport (a whole lot cheaper than diverting the whole GO/VIA line into Pearson). And Etobicoke North no longer has a good track configuration for an improved station.

And, the broader agenda was to get a developer to pay for a new station instead of funding it by taxpayer dollars - the quid pro quo being permitting the surrounding area to become a transit oriented community and an enhanced recreation site instead of just a racetrack and employment lands (again, I am not agreeing that the TOD community will amount to much, but certainly the developer and the racetrack will make out like bandits).(and as has proved to be the case, the slow speed of the development process has simply prevented moving forward on much-needed upgrades to the rail line, as this station was a prerequisite to completing the fourth track)

- Paul

 

[drum118]

The London Heathrow Express is 15 minutes nonstop from Heathrow Airport to Paddington Station. It's not cheap. The new Elizabeth Line trains, at less than half the cost, make same trip in 27 minutes with stops in between. The Elizabeth Line trains also serve more terminals within Heathrow and, at the City end, continue further past Paddington into central London.

I guess I should have been more clear as I was referring to what I have been on and seen.

Back in 2012 I was to pickup the wife from Heathrow and had no plan to use the express after I arrived from Edinburgh the day before. I left two weeks before her since she had other thing to do first. Since by train from Edinburgh was forced to turn around due to track washout, I wasn't there to meet her. She took a cab to the hotel at a cost of 75 euro as I wasn't sure I would make it the day she arrived because track washout but ended up arriving 8 hours after see arrived.

Both in 2012 and 2022 we travel to various airports since she like seeing planes land and take off on local trains as there were no non stop ones that I can recalled. Been on a few intercity trains that stop both ways from cities we were visiting or passing though. There are a few cities we visited that had no rail service to the airport with a few that will see rail in the coming years but not express.

The closest line we use to an airport that was almost express was Zürich. Hamburg S-Bahn would be next.

 

[dob467]

It was perceived as a better location for a broader catchment area than Etobicoke North. (I'm not saying I agree, but that was the stated rationale)

Also has been argued to have better potential as a transit hub and connectivity point, assuming Finch LRT is extended and this becomes the transfer point between the Kitchener line and Pearson Airport (a whole lot cheaper than diverting the whole GO/VIA line into Pearson). And Etobicoke North no longer has a good track configuration for an improved station.

And, the broader agenda was to get a developer to pay for a new station instead of funding it by taxpayer dollars - the quid pro quo being permitting the surrounding area to become a transit oriented community and an enhanced recreation site instead of just a racetrack and employment lands (again, I am dubious that the TOD community will amount to much, but certainly the developer and the racetrack will make out like bandits).(and as has proved to be the case, the slow speed of the development process has simply prevented moving forward on much-needed upgrades to the rail line, as this station was a prerequisite to completing the fourth track)

- Paul

Thanks for the background. I can see the logic with providing better access to Pearson for folks taking the Kitchener line. We sure are adding enough stops for the UPX to become more than just a train to Pearson - which would surely be a good transit addition to the west end of the city.

 

[crs1026]

Heathrow Express is a fantastic service, but in the context of what we can afford and how much track space we have in Toronto, there is nothing wrong with accepting a more modest system. UPE would not gain much by having no stops and 100 mph top speed - it might be sexier, but the several stops don't dminish its marketability all that much, especially if fares are to be kept at or close to GO Transit level. HE is not cheap. (I have used it because I had time left over on my Britrailpass, so it cost me nothing.....but absent that the Tube lines worked fine for me)

I would be happy with just building the Finch LRT all the way to Pearson, and not having GO stopping trains go to Pearson at all. Transfer from GO to LRT at Woodbine. Lots of precedent for cities that link transit to airport with a tram. Edinburgh is comparable in that the rail lines pass as close to Edinburgh airport as the Kitchener line passes Pearson.... passengers alight at Edinburgh Gateway and take the tram from there. Newark has a peoplemover between the NJT/Amtrak corridor and the terminal.

Yeah, that's a bit more spartan than a perfect solution... but sometimes good is good enough.

- Paul

 

[beatle04]

I rode the UPX to Union in the summer when I was in Toronto. I was actually quite surprised at how loud and rough the ride was. Also, why is it so damn slow between the mainline and Pearson itself along the elevated sections? Did they screw up the elevated sections or is it the trains themselves?

I believe they made the curve radius tighter to save money thinking the trains would still be able to go at the ideal speed. Turned out doing so caused a lot of additional maintenance so the solution was to put a permanent slow zone

 

[dowlingm]

I believe they made the curve radius tighter to save money thinking the trains would still be able to go at the ideal speed. Turned out doing so caused a lot of additional maintenance so the solution was to put a permanent slow zone

Do I recall correctly that a PTC system on the spur also contributes to the slow operation?

 

[crs1026]

Do I recall correctly that a PTC system on the spur also contributes to the slow operation?

Not really a PTC, but simply a system that only allows the UP trains to be routed onto the spur - to prevent RTC's from erroneously routing other trains up that route.

The device had some teething issues that slowed dispatching, but to my knowledge it does not control speed on the spur, just routing.

- Paul

 

[Jaye101]

I think there's a tension right now between what UPX is right now, and what it will be as GO improves on the Kitchener corridor.

IMO the right long term stops for the UPX are Pearson, Woodbine, Mt Dennis, Bloor, Union, East Harbour. Woodbine with an extended Line 6, plus as a transfer point from GO services west of Woodbine. Mt Dennis and Bloor for the Line 5 and 2 connections respectively. Union is obvious. East Harbour as a transfer point for the Ontario Line and those going to the airport from eastern Toronto.


But SCOW, Weston, Liberty Village, etc, should all still exist, just as GO train stops. With GO trains running every 15 mins or better it would meet or exceed current UPX service levels. I suspect we'd see demand for 10 minute or better service in short order.

IMO that provides a cleaner separation between the "airport express" and "RER" service patterns. But any actual implementation of this is obviously years away, and depends on electrification, new operations at Union, etc. So for now there's obvious demands on the UPX because the service frequencies as so much better than GO, and that creates this tension between two good goals (express airport service and good local transit), and we're going to see good arguments on both sides.

The mistake was made when the McGuinty gov't decided to make the UPX focused on business travellers.

At the time there was no additional stations planned along the route, and the province continually told residents of the City that the corridor was not for them. There was no direct connections to the subway built into the plan, and residents of Weston were forced to organize as even their existing station was being overlooked. It's almost as if they didn't care for residents of the city to use this service at all.

It's a failure of government to create an Airport Express for business travellers before creating an adequate network for local travel. Especially with public funds. As city dwellers we deal with the brunt of the construction, the trucks daily, the rats infesting our neighbourhoods due to ground work, noise and fumes, god forbid we get a seat on the train. And built with our tax dollars.

It's laughable.

And again, I would bet my life savings that the local economic impact of making the UPX a metro line would dwarf whatever impact an extra 10-mins would cost business travellers. Perhaps when the GO network is electrified or upgraded this can be revisited, but now is the time to do what makes sense.

 

[TRONto]

When the Woodbine Station opens that is when changes to the current UPX stops needs to be change.

As far I am concern regardless it may mean an extra transfer for some riders that UPX stops would be Airport, Woodbine, Eglinton, Bloor and Union. Woodbine is needed to allow riders from the west to get to the airport or from it tnen to back track from Eglinton adding extra travel time.

Those getting on/off at other station will have access using GO service to get to/from an UPX station.

Been on trains in Europe that go to the airport and most made all stops from the city centre to the airport. Trying to recall who had non stop service between the 2 points and coming up blank at this time.

Agreed. This would be the ideal UPX configuration with GO providing frequent stops along the rest via the Kitchener line.

 

[dowlingm]

The mistake was made when the McGuinty gov't decided to make the UPX focused on business travellers.

At the time there was no additional stations planned along the route, and the province continually told residents of the City that the corridor was not for them. There was no direct connections to the subway built into the plan, and residents of Weston were forced to organize as even their existing station was being overlooked. It's almost as if they didn't care for residents of the city to use this service at all.

It's a failure of government to create an Airport Express for business trailers before creating an adequate network for local travel. Especially with public funds. As city dwellers we deal with the brunt of the construction, the trucks daily, the rats infesting our neighbourhoods due to ground work, noise and fumes, god forbid we get a seat on the train. And built with our tax dollars.

some dude called "Sean Marshall" wrote about this in 2008 back when it was still called "Blue 22" https://spacing.ca/toronto/2008/08/05/shoo-blue-22/