Amare
Senior Member
Or by riders along Dixon who are consistently toyed around by the TTC with the horrid 52 Lawrence West serivce.
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
nfitz
Superstar
Sure, but it's another service downgrade. First it was promised 22 minutes. Then they added Weston to make it 25. Then 28. And now they are making St. Clair a UP-only stop ... bringing it to 31 minutes. What next - Woodbine for 34 minutes?
TRONto
Active Member
I label access to Eglinton/St Clair/Woodbine an upgrade
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Depends where the 901 express bus stops will be placed. Haven't seen any proposals or suggestions of where any express bus stops would be located or not. Or even if they will implement 901 when Line 5 opens.
PL1
Senior Member
Jaye101
Active Member
I mean, for business travellers it's an extra 10 mins once all is said and done.
But what about someone from St Clair and Old Weston? Currently this trip is 45 mins midday to Union. A trip from here is reduced to 15 mins, saving 30 mins.
What about Woodbine? Local transit is 1hr 16mins, with the UPX this trip is reduced to 30 mins.
This is the same type of thinking that lead to the One Stop Line 2 extension proposed by Wynne in Scarborough, and the reluctance by the province to add stops to GO lines within Toronto. It's short sighted and is the perfect illustration of the idiom 'shooting yourself in the foot.'
How much money does all that extra time cost for all those people along the route compared to an extra 10 mins for business travellers? The idea that working class neighbourhoods don't deserve transit is particularly elitist and short sighted. And I'll bet my life savings that the potential economic growth from adding these much needed stations dwarfs whatever impact an extra 10 mins would cost business travellers and the city's economy as a whole.
taylortbb
New Member
I think there's a tension right now between what UPX is right now, and what it will be as GO improves on the Kitchener corridor.
IMO the right long term stops for the UPX are Pearson, Woodbine, Mt Dennis, Bloor, Union, East Harbour. Woodbine with an extended Line 6, plus as a transfer point from GO services west of Woodbine. Mt Dennis and Bloor for the Line 5 and 2 connections respectively. Union is obvious. East Harbour as a transfer point for the Ontario Line and those going to the airport from eastern Toronto.
But SCOW, Weston, Liberty Village, etc, should all still exist, just as GO train stops. With GO trains running every 15 mins or better it would meet or exceed current UPX service levels. I suspect we'd see demand for 10 minute or better service in short order.
IMO that provides a cleaner separation between the "airport express" and "RER" service patterns. But any actual implementation of this is obviously years away, and depends on electrification, new operations at Union, etc. So for now there's obvious demands on the UPX because the service frequencies as so much better than GO, and that creates this tension between two good goals (express airport service and good local transit), and we're going to see good arguments on both sides.
felix123
Active Member
I agree - it's a slight increase to travel times to Bloor and Union, but it allows for way faster trips from St. Clair and Eglinton.
I feel like if we could just fix the slow speeds on the airport spur, it would counteract the time lost to the additional stops. It's also agonizing when you're running late for a flight and the train crawls along that last stretch.
One more thing that would also improve the experience for business travellers would be to get rid of the manure smell that's been present in the UPX trains for at least a couple years now.
That pokey diesel train sounds just like a farm tractor, and it smells like one too lol
Bojaxs
Senior Member
If we keep adding all these stops to the UP line, tourists will simply opt to take a taxi or Uber instead, because Google will show it as being faster.
For myself, living in Oakville, Google maps is telling me that taking the LSW and UP is barely competitive with taking GO Bus 56 and GO Bus 40. Add in two more stops at St. Clair and Woodbine and the UP is useless to me.
IMO, it feels like we're adding all these UP stations in order to pick up GO's slack. Once the Kitchener line is improved (fourth track, etc.) than maybe we'll realise we didn't have to build these UP stations?
For myself, living in Oakville, Google maps is telling me that taking the LSW and UP is barely competitive with taking GO Bus 56 and GO Bus 40. Add in two more stops at St. Clair and Woodbine and the UP is useless to me.
IMO, it feels like we're adding all these UP stations in order to pick up GO's slack. Once the Kitchener line is improved (fourth track, etc.) than maybe we'll realise we didn't have to build these UP stations?
crs1026
Superstar
The details that we lack (that ML will have the benefit of) are the cumulative ridership figures as trains approach or leave the centre of the city. If enough seats have emptied by the time the notional train reaches Woodbine or Bramalea, it makes sense to use two trains, turning that many empty cars back at that point, with the second, separate train of appropriate length to run fairly full the rest of the way to Kitchener.
I have a feeling that running only twelve car trains all the way to Kitchener may offer too many seats for that market, and filling those seats by stopping too many places along the way may indeed harm that longer distance market.
On a true subway, seats empty and refill consistently over the length of the run.... I have a suspicion that is not the case - or the potential optimum case - for Kitchener. Having an inner tier makes sense - to me, having that inner tier run all the way to Mount Pleasant makes more intuitive sense than either Pearson or Bramalea.... but the data may show otherwise. Possibly Pearson makes more sense from a ridership perspective.
I also suspect that a GO line to Pearson will attract the air travellers just fine, in preference to a bus or Uber.....especially if Google is accurate about travel times to the downtown. There are certainly limits to how many transfers to local transit an air traveller with suitcase may choose, but the ease and amenity of the train will attract many.
I have not detected any foul odours on UP, it remains the most pleasant ride in GTA transit IMHO. If GO reequips or reconfigures, the one thing it will need to provide is more accommodation for luggage.... just as the 900 TTC bus does. The current bilevel fleet is not that suitcase friendly.
- Paul
felix123
Active Member
I agree with almost all of your post, except I thought everyone had noticed how bad the UP smells. This post describes the aroma as "cow"
Amare
Senior Member
I think one important thing to consider, which hasnt been discussed is the capacity of UPX.
It's not like Metrolinx has tons of DMUs lying around, and Nippon Sharyo is no longer manufacturing the vehicle in North America. So the fact that Metrolinx wants to open up all these additional stations, which is going to be additional demand on the existing fleet which cant be expanded is concerning, to say the least.
I don't understand why a full sized GO station at St.Clair-Weston isnt being considered, along with bolstered Kitchener line service. This is very short-sighted thinking by Metrolinx, and leads me to believe that they again as usual, they have no idea how to plan for long-term purposes.
I'll go as far as to say this is a recipe for disaster.
It's not like Metrolinx has tons of DMUs lying around, and Nippon Sharyo is no longer manufacturing the vehicle in North America. So the fact that Metrolinx wants to open up all these additional stations, which is going to be additional demand on the existing fleet which cant be expanded is concerning, to say the least.
I don't understand why a full sized GO station at St.Clair-Weston isnt being considered, along with bolstered Kitchener line service. This is very short-sighted thinking by Metrolinx, and leads me to believe that they again as usual, they have no idea how to plan for long-term purposes.
I'll go as far as to say this is a recipe for disaster.
taylortbb
New Member
It was considered, in fact it was the original plan. The switch to UPX is a very recent development.
The reason is that GO's agreement with the city, for the city to pay for SmartTrack stations, requires every 15 minutes or better service. It sounds like the Kitchener line GO won't be getting that as soon as promised (cutbacks? construction delays? why isn't clear), and so GO has to use the one service that can meet their frequency obligations.
drum118
Superstar
When the Woodbine Station opens that is when changes to the current UPX stops needs to be change.
As far I am concern regardless it may mean an extra transfer for some riders that UPX stops would be Airport, Woodbine, Eglinton, Bloor and Union. Woodbine is needed to allow riders from the west to get to the airport or from it tnen to back track from Eglinton adding extra travel time.
Those getting on/off at other station will have access using GO service to get to/from an UPX station.
Been on trains in Europe that go to the airport and most made all stops from the city centre to the airport. Trying to recall who had non stop service between the 2 points and coming up blank at this time.
As far I am concern regardless it may mean an extra transfer for some riders that UPX stops would be Airport, Woodbine, Eglinton, Bloor and Union. Woodbine is needed to allow riders from the west to get to the airport or from it tnen to back track from Eglinton adding extra travel time.
Those getting on/off at other station will have access using GO service to get to/from an UPX station.
Been on trains in Europe that go to the airport and most made all stops from the city centre to the airport. Trying to recall who had non stop service between the 2 points and coming up blank at this time.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I rode the UPX to Union in the summer when I was in Toronto. I was actually quite surprised at how loud and rough the ride was. Also, why is it so damn slow between the mainline and Pearson itself along the elevated sections? Did they screw up the elevated sections or is it the trains themselves?