Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[gweed123]

Though generally I find downtown transit ridership increases in poor weather, with many of those who walk, instead opting for streetars, etc.

On really bad snowy days, when I used to reverse commute out to Don Mills, I'd ditch the car and take the subway and bus instead, as it would be faster - or at least no where near as frustrating and white-knuckling.

Except here there's no co-fare, so taking the TTC vs walking results in a double fare. And if someone is paying the TTC fare anyway, the temptation would be to just take the TTC for the whole trip. I think there's a not insignificant number of people who are within a 15 min walking distance of either Bloor or Weston who won't pay the extra TTC fare, but would walk to the station if the weather was nice enough.

 

[Palma]

I would expect people going to the Metro Toronto Convention Centre, SkyDome (AKA Rogers Centre), CN Tower, or AC Centre may want to use the UPX, if they live near Weston or Bloor. No transfers, so only walk-ins and I would expect the parking lots to fill up.

What about going to the Ex where National Home Show is?

 

[cplchanb]

Except here there's no co-fare, so taking the TTC vs walking results in a double fare. And if someone is paying the TTC fare anyway, the temptation would be to just take the TTC for the whole trip. I think there's a not insignificant number of people who are within a 15 min walking distance of either Bloor or Weston who won't pay the extra TTC fare, but would walk to the station if the weather was nice enough.

Once the TTC modifies its fare structure to integrate with Presto I believe that the costs difference will be significantly minimized to be worth a second look.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The platform location in the SkyWalk, while a bit of a distance from the bulk of Union Station, is actually perfect for the Rogers Centre. Wonder if UPX will be standing-room only on game days when the Jays are back. I could certainly imagine lots of fans from the NW of the city doing the math and driving to say Weston to ride in.

Didn't they run a promo during the Blue Jays playoff run. Discounted (or free) parking at the GTAA airport lots, and discounted UPX fare? Maybe my memory is failing. I thought that was an interesting way to boost ridership, while keeping the fare at a relatively premium level, reflecting the premium/express service the rest of the time.

 

[salsa]

Here's a guy who documented his trip from Jane station to the Financial District using UPX and weighed it against the TTC.

http://imgur.com/a/uGtds

This comment was interesting.

The train had about 30-40 people on board. I asked the ticket collector about the impact of lower fares and she said volumes are already up about 100%. Will be interesting to see it grow. As an aside, signage and advertising at Pearson is greatly improved. The new price is prominently displayed throughout the terminals.

 

[vic]

Here's a guy who documented his trip from Jane station to the Financial District using UPX and weighed it against the TTC.
http://imgur.com/a/uGtds

Imagine the indignity of having to walk past "authentic Junction culture" (aka poor people) on your way downtown from Bloor West Village.

 

[Grimace]

It's especially demeaning when you're at Dundas West & Bloor, a good 10-15 minute walk from the Junction neigbourhood.

 

[mdrejhon]

At least it /seems/ the total revenues doesn't seem to be going down.
Realistically, it appears up 100-200% (depending on time of day), they can at least boast of increased ridership and increased revenues.

It won't break even, but as a save-face, exceeding both metrics is much needed.

This is because we need GO RER/electrification initiatives to survive, and unifying UPX into the GO fare system was an overdue move. Hindsight is 20/20 but I'm glad to see action before UPX wrecks GO RER.

I suspect that during electrification & fare integration, they are going to have to figure out if UPX eventually equalizes to a TTC fare at least for the Bloor/Weston fare zone, with only a premium fare at Pearson.

 

[TOareaFan]

This is because we need GO RER/electrification initiatives to survive, and unifying UPX into the GO fare system was an overdue move. Hindsight is 20/20 but I'm glad to see action before UPX wrecks GO RER.

I suspect that during electrification & fare integration, they are going to have to figure out if UPX eventually equalizes to a TTC fare at least for the Bloor/Weston fare zone, with only a premium fare at Pearson.

We leap form UPX being a GO ReR equivalent to it being a TTC fare pretty quick there.

Is GO ReR (either in planning or in your mind) at TTC fare?

 

[mdrejhon]

Thought: It's going to be hard to ever decouple the fares again.
What happens during fare integration with TTC?

I imagine that by then, UPX merges into the overall GO RER during electrification. (Including whatever SmartTrack related enhancements are included into the GO RER Plan)

Presumably the combined UPX+RER service could utilize six-coach high-floor bilevel EMUs with good bend radius:
- Doubleberth at one of the regular Union tracks for opposite direction services
- Lengthened Bloor/Weston high platform
- Open only the front 3 coaches at Pearson (Whenever using Pearson spur instead of Bramalea)

Is it feasible to extend the UPX platform backwards into Union Platform 3?
- This would allow keeping the existing UPX station.
- There's already platform space (barely.)
- Much easier access to the UPX via the Platform 3 stairways from Bay/York concourses and Bay teamways.
- Subway platforms at TTC Union are already narrow. This would just be the same.
- Platform can just be really narrow for 3 coaches, stretching into Union Track #3.
- Easy access to UPX station via Track 3 stairways from all concourses.
- Conveniently: the 3 coaches that open at Pearson (assuming Pearson station is not lengthened), are the 3 coaches berthing at the larger UPX Union berth. The rearmost 3 coaches would overlap backwards into Platform 3 with a narrow raised-platform-hallway extending eastwards from the UPX station to underneath the UPX shed. For Pearson travellers, that makes it easy to know which coaches to board -- the doors in the larger waiting area -- and they would have the airport icons. A sign in front of the narrow platform-hallway would say "Coaches open doors at Weston/Bloor. Not at Pearson". (And once heading north of Weston, an announcement would be made as a reminder)
- Signal modification: A VIA train or another 6-coach train could still double-berth at Union (as they already do on Track 3 with concurrent UPX operations). Basically the existing signal separating the berths could be moved backwards by 3 coach-lengths, and any permitted train length at Track 3 reduced by 3 coaches (or just use it to doubleberth a second 6-coach EMU going in the opposite direction).

(Drum118, would this be feasible?)

 

[mdrejhon]

We leap form UPX being a GO ReR equivalent to it being a TTC fare pretty quick there.

Is GO ReR (either in planning or in your mind) at TTC fare?

Metrolinx Fare Integration Link:
www.metrolinxengage.com/en/engagement-initiatives/fare-integration

Same criteria. Since GO fare = UPX fare for non-Pearson, let's imagine UPX is now automatically part of this Fare Integration page (at least for non-Pearson stations -- only premium fares for the Pearson station). Of particular interest is the "Fare Structure Concepts" sub-page, which lists several possible fare integration structure, including, of course, possible zone-based fares. In some of the concepts, there's proposed fare equality between local/rapid/regional transit for certain distances or zone.

Now that UPX and GO fares are the same, if the fare equality is permanent, it's automatically (and possibly problematically for Metrolinx) part of the above link.

 

[TOareaFan]

Metrolinx Fare Integration Link:
www.metrolinxengage.com/en/engagement-initiatives/fare-integration

Same criteria. Now that GO is equalized in fare to UPX, let's imagine that the UPX icon is added to that page, and only premium fares for the Pearson station. Of particular interest is the "Fare Structure Concepts" sub-page.

Well if GO trains ReR or not are going to be at municipal fares in one municipality....let's hope that is the case in every municipality?

 

[mdrejhon]

Well if GO trains ReR or not are going to be at municipal fares in one municipality....let's hope that is the case in every municipality?

Fare integration is a hugely complex project (their words), taking probably a decade (or so) to complete for all municipalities, I suggest reading every sub-page there. They are still studying multiple Fare Structure Concepts.

 

[TOareaFan]

Fare integration is a hugely complex project (their words), taking probably a decade (or so) to complete for all municipalities, I suggest reading every sub-page there. They are still studying multiple Fare Structure Concepts.

I know it is a hugely complex thing....and as I have commented in other threads on these boards it means different things to different people....my comment here was trying to understand how you seem to have (unless I misunderstand your comment/writing style) made the leap that the next step is for GO ReR to operate at TTC fares?

 

[mdrejhon]

Firstly, in one Metrolinx proposal, it is possible GO = TTC = UPX for medium distance, like this Metrolinx graph:

I know it is a hugely complex thing....and as I have commented in other threads on these boards it means different things to different people....my comment here was trying to understand how you seem to have (unless I misunderstand your comment/writing style) made the leap that the next step is for GO ReR to operate at TTC fares?

First, let me clarify semantics -- with Fare Integration it may not actually be "Everything operates at TTC fares" but "TTC now operates on the Metrolinx fare zone system". We honestly don't know. More realistically, it will be a hybrid system.

Depends on distance. Just look at the graphs at Fare Structure Concepts - there are some integration concepts where the graphs say for specific trips GO fares are identical to TTC fares (or "TTC fares are identical to GO fares", but that's just semantics at this stage) in certain circumstances if you look carefully at these Metrolinx proposed options.

Firstly, in one Metrolinx proposal, it is possible GO = TTC = UPX for medium distance, like this Metrolinx graph. I have no idea if they will define Weston as "medium distance". This is unrelated to any opinions I had. This is Metrolinx idea.

In a different Metrolinx proposal, it seems possible GO = TTC = UPX only for subway instead of buses like this other Metrolinx graph, assuming they distinguish local buses from rapid transit subway. This is unrelated to any opinions I had. This is Metrolinx idea, too.

All I can say is to check their Fare Integration page out for the specific certain situations where it could happen "GO equals TTC" or "TTC equals GO" for some trips (choose your own semantic preference). These are not my opinions. It is Metrolinx's idea. So back from this red herring semantic distraction and to the million (billion?) dollar question below...

TL;DR: Semantics aside, my point is it's called "Fare Integration" and the UPX is thrown into the "Fare Integration" discussion automatically because they made GO=UPX fare for non-Pearson stations. In other words, people will wonder how Metrolinx(+Toronto) plans to later integrate TTC+GO fares, in light of GO+UPX now being integrated fares.