Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[vegeta_skyline]

Might require resignalling those 2 tracks for a much smaller block size (far more expensive than you might think).

The signal blocks are already absurdly close, more than double the average on the next highest line the Lakeshore West. They are most certainly NOT getting any closer on the Weston sub. With the spacing as is, 5 minute headway would likely be possible for the UP.

Furtherance to my point, there are major sightline and obstruction issues. Unlike subways lines rail side signals on the mainlines are generally located above the track so that trains can see them from a far enough distance. In some of the long straight stretches of track I can see 4 of these signals in a row in addition to having 4 of them placed next to each other with the four tracks compared to a single track subway tunnel. If they were to place them any closer it would become much more difficult to discern them from one another especially when you consider we have over a hundred different possible signal indications to abide by; https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/railsafety/rules-tco167-175.htm. And passing trains moving in the opposite direction when they have their headlight on, required in certain situations, makes seeing these indications all the more difficult. In addition, sightlines are already rather poor with numerous signals located behind obstructions such as bridges.

Most importantly you need to remember trains on that mainline are traveling at 80mph as opposed to the 55mph maximum on the subway lines. Which means they requires more than double the stopping distance and that's providing they have the same breaking capacity. This necessitates longer blocks, so you'll never see subway like spacing unless you reduce the maximum speed of the trains which would be counter productive.

 

[rbt]

The signal blocks are already absurdly close, more than double the average on the next highest line the Lakeshore West. They are most certainly NOT getting any closer on the Weston sub. With the spacing as is, 5 minute headway would likely be possible for the UP.

Good to know. I assumed they were built with something closer to GOs standard spacing which put the minimum frequency closer to 10 minutes.

 

[FC_]

If it works, great, keep it.....if not, paint the trains green and white, roll the operations back into GO, and open a Hortons at Union to replace the elitist business traveller latte stand.

Wow wow wow, easy there!! Totally on board with everything you've said, but there's no need to get rid of the delicious Balzacs, especially when Union already has a Tims. And since when has Balzacs been elitist?

If anything, the questionable part of the UP station at Union is the "CIBC UPSTAIRS lounge featuring Mill St. Brewery". Who has time for a beer at Union when you're racing to Pearson to catch a flight? Only place where planting down and having a beer on your trip makes sense is after you've passed through security.

 

[crs1026]

If anything, the questionable part of the UP station at Union is the "CIBC UPSTAIRS lounge featuring Mill St. Brewery".

Well, Labatt's just bought out Mill Street, and I'm not sure what that may lead to

- Paul

 

[PL1]

If anything, the questionable part of the UP station at Union is the "CIBC UPSTAIRS lounge featuring Mill St. Brewery". Who has time for a beer at Union when you're racing to Pearson to catch a flight?

Some VIA rail customers! I was at Union to catch a VIA train to Montreal just after the UP opened and I had some time before the train. I was going to have a beer, but the lounge wasn't open yet.

 

[mdrejhon]

The signal blocks are already absurdly close, more than double the average on the next highest line the Lakeshore West. They are most certainly NOT getting any closer on the Weston sub. With the spacing as is, 5 minute headway would likely be possible for the UP.

Especially with Positive Train Control added, I presume? Signals are only 0.65 miles apart on the Weston sub.

This necessitates longer blocks, so you'll never see subway like spacing unless you reduce the maximum speed of the trains which would be counter productive.

I'm curious about Europe and Japan -- how do they run some high speed trains with extremely tight headways? Could a new signalling system be used, that allows shorter headways, without the disadvantages of visual clutter?

 

[Napoleon]

I'm curious about Europe and Japan -- how do they run some high speed trains with extremely tight headways? Could a new signalling system be used, that allows shorter headways, without the disadvantages of visual clutter?

Japan has a hodgepodge of rail companies controlling different lines and the various shinkansen lines use a couple different analogue and digital ATC systems. There are generally no trackside signals as the controls interface directly with the trains. Some of the ATC interfaces directly with the tilting mechanism for traveling through curves at higher speed, such as on the N700.

All that said, it's still astonishing how well the Japanese rail system runs. Even something like the Yamanote line runs with subway like headways.

 

[cplchanb]

Also to add on... trains are considered late if they arrive more than ONE MINUTE behind schedule, unlike here where 5 minutes is considered on time. Just saying....the Japanese work ethic is impeccable albeit very stressful sometimes

 

[mdrejhon]

Also to add on... trains are considered late if they arrive more than ONE MINUTE behind schedule, unlike here where 5 minutes is considered on time

Yes, it's astonlishing.

We can only dream. The japanese would laugh at our crude 0.65 mile blocks on Weston.

 

[smallspy]

I'm curious about Europe and Japan -- how do they run some high speed trains with extremely tight headways? Could a new signalling system be used, that allows shorter headways, without the disadvantages of visual clutter?

In almost all cases, high-speed lines use in-cab signalling to allow crews to correctly interpret the signals, rather than trying to see the line-side lights.

In the case of France's high speed network, they created a brand new signalling system that incorporates short, fixed block lengths and in-cab signal displays to allow the trains to operate at very close headways but still have a safe margin for error. In the case of Japan, many of the lines are now using moving-block systems which use computers onboard each train to calculate what the minimum stopping distance is from the train ahead and tailor a speed limit up to that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[goreckm]

In almost all cases, high-speed lines use in-cab signalling to allow crews to correctly interpret the signals, rather than trying to see the line-side lights.

In the case of France's high speed network, they created a brand new signalling system that incorporates short, fixed block lengths and in-cab signal displays to allow the trains to operate at very close headways but still have a safe margin for error. In the case of Japan, many of the lines are now using moving-block systems which use computers onboard each train to calculate what the minimum stopping distance is from the train ahead and tailor a speed limit up to that.

So, I'm assuming the re-signaling that Metrolinx will be doing at some point will enable these scenarios?

 

[crs1026]

So, I'm assuming the re-signaling that Metrolinx will be doing at some point will enable these scenarios?

One would hope that the new CTC that recently went into operation on the Weston Sub (and, for that matter, the fairly recent installations on the Richmond Hill, Barrie, and Uxbridge lines) will be PTC-compatible....but so far there is no outward indication of this.

CTC is quite expensive....it is troubling just how readily the staff reports and the politicians are suggesting that what just got installed may have to be torn out and replaced all over again. That is money down the drain.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

One of my colleagues who lives in Kitchener has begun using VIA/UPX from Kitchener Stn to Pearson. He says that provided be organizes his flights around train times, it's more convenient than driving, taxi, shuttle or other alternatives.

 

[TOareaFan]

One of my colleagues who lives in Kitchener has begun using VIA/UPX from Kitchener Stn to Pearson. He says that provided be organizes his flights around train times, it's more convenient than driving, taxi, shuttle or other alternatives.

Does he use VIA all the way to Union then backtrack? Does it not work just as well to take GO to Weston and backtrack?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm not sure, but I assume he goes past Pearson to Union and then UPE to the airport. Looking at the map I see what you mean. I've never understood why GO just didn't move the Malton rail station to the airport, it's almost within walking distance now.