Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[lenaitch]

The history of Pearson’s development certainly agrees with you. I think a rail link in the 1970s or early 80s wouldn’t have been logically impossible.

That said, Pearson’s original designers could have done it. Having mainline rail to airports was already a thing by then https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_rail_link

Many or most of those examples are from countries that actually had an inter-city rail network, as opposed to ours which had been in decline since the '30s. It was a social change - they trains were still there but ridership was steadily declining. The democratic and flexible personal movement by car was becoming king; seen as an problem now, particularly urban, but seen as something easily accommodated and desirable back then when both population and air travel were much lower.

I think sometimes we (general or royal 'we') condemn planners, engineers and politicians of the past with lacking an unrealistic level of foresight. Should rail builders of the late 19th century be condemned for not building lines that were dead straight and flat so as to accommodate HSR - something they couldn't realize in their wildest dreams let alone sell to the taxpayer. There is fairly general view that people like R.C. Harris were an exception.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Thoughts of a Pearson rail link back then? Egads. Steampunk science fiction!

I have to agree. But in the 1980s or 1990s it was entirely doable. I remember when I first started working at the airport as a summer job in 1992 and seeing the train station and wondering what the hell, there's a train station right there. When the VISTA lot people mover train was being built I immediately thought that it was to finally connect Malton GO to the airport. You'd think they could at least have shuttle buses.

The fact that Malton GO was never used as a rail link to Pearson is a stain on government and planning.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I think that a rail link to Pearson airport was never considered for a number of reasons.

Let's not forget that prior to 1998 the airport was federally run, that prior to the 70's Montreal was the largest city in Canada and the economic and cultural centre of Canada, that plans for Pickering airport in the 70's included a rail link (which one could interpret as meaning that Pickering was seen as a replacement to Pearson.

 

[smallspy]

I think that a rail link to Pearson airport was never considered for a number of reasons.

Let's not forget that prior to 1998 the airport was federally run, that prior to the 70's Montreal was the largest city in Canada and the economic and cultural centre of Canada, that plans for Pickering airport in the 70's included a rail link (which one could interpret as meaning that Pickering was seen as a replacement to Pearson.

GO Transit themselves commissioned a study in 2000 or 2001 regarding a rail link to the airport, and the form it could take. While the study took a look at a number of different methods (including the form that was later used by Blue22, later UP Express) found that the most cost-efficient way was to build a people-mover from the airport to a location on the Halton Sub, and a new station built there that could be served by both GO and VIA trains.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

GO Transit themselves commissioned a study in 2000 or 2001 regarding a rail link to the airport, and the form it could take. While the study took a look at a number of different methods (including the form that was later used by Blue22, later UP Express) found that the most cost-efficient way was to build a people-mover from the airport to a location on the Halton Sub, and a new station built there that could be served by both GO and VIA trains.

Dan

Dan - just checking - the Halton Sub? All the way up there?

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

Dan - just checking - the Halton Sub? All the way up there?

- Paul

Doesn't the Halton Sub include the track that goes through Malton GO?

Halton Sub includes the Malport CN yard on Torbram Road, located 3 km from the airport's border.

CN Halton Subdivision

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www.railroadradio.net

 

[smallspy]

Dan - just checking - the Halton Sub? All the way up there?

- Paul

My apologies, that was a mistake on my part.

The station location would have been on the Weston Sub, just west of Highway 27.

Dan

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

GO Transit themselves commissioned a study in 2000 or 2001 regarding a rail link to the airport, and the form it could take. While the study took a look at a number of different methods (including the form that was later used by Blue22, later UP Express) found that the most cost-efficient way was to build a people-mover from the airport to a location on the Halton Sub, and a new station built there that could be served by both GO and VIA trains.

Dan

But this was after Pearson was transferred to the GTAA, which is my point. The federal government did not exactly manage Pearson all that great, whether due to disinterest or more nefarious reasons, it was never managed like a major global airport until the GTAA took it over.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If the UPE is overcrowded this suggests the price is too low. Same as when it was underutilized when the price was too high. So, increase the price until the trains are full, but not over capacity. This will return the UPE to greater revenue per rider. We all have other means of getting to the airport.

From premium service to commuter 'milk run': Is the UP Express rolling in the right direction?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/from-premium-service-to-commuter-milk-run-is-the-up-express-rolling-in-the-right-direction-1.5301127

I would argue it is not. Return the UPE to it's original purpose, that of an premium airport express train.

 

[dowlingm]

If the UPE is overcrowded this suggests the price is too low. Same as when it was underutilized when the price was too high. So, increase the price until the trains are full, but not over capacity. This will return the UPE to greater revenue per rider.

Or employ dynamic pricing - like the airlines do.

 

[micheal_can]

If the UPE is overcrowded this suggests the price is too low. Same as when it was underutilized when the price was too high. So, increase the price until the trains are full, but not over capacity. This will return the UPE to greater revenue per rider. We all have other means of getting to the airport.

From premium service to commuter 'milk run': Is the UP Express rolling in the right direction?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/from-premium-service-to-commuter-milk-run-is-the-up-express-rolling-in-the-right-direction-1.5301127

I would argue it is not. Return the UPE to it's original purpose, that of an premium airport express train.

I hope you never are in charge of a public service. What should happen is simple - add more cars and more runs. It would be akin to suggesting raising the TTC fair so that no one stands. A great way to solve congestion, but not a great way to deliver the service people want.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I hope you never are in charge of a public service. What should happen is simple - add more cars and more runs. It would be akin to suggesting raising the TTC fair so that no one stands. A great way to solve congestion, but not a great way to deliver the service people want.

The UPE is not a public service, at least it shouldn't be. When people are using the UPE for their daily transit downtown as opposed to using the TTC service ready-made for that service, the UPE is too cheap. In my book, the UPE should be only lightly subsidized since it's often used by business travelers like myself, who don't care what it costs. Increase the fares until the demand meets the supply.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The UPE is not a public service, at least it shouldn't be. When people are using the UPE for their daily transit downtown as opposed to using the TTC service ready-made for that service, the UPE is too cheap. In my book, the UPE should be only lightly subsidized since it's often used by business travelers like myself, who don't care what it costs. Increase the fares until the demand meets the supply.

I use UPX to get to and from the Convention Centre, Skydome Rogers Centre, and/or Scotiabank Arena. Especially when there is no GO Train running (or would have to wait forever for the next GO Train). So it is used NOT just to get to and from the airport.

 

[crs1026]

The UPE is not a public service, at least it shouldn't be. When people are using the UPE for their daily transit downtown as opposed to using the TTC service ready-made for that service, the UPE is too cheap. In my book, the UPE should be only lightly subsidized since it's often used by business travelers like myself, who don't care what it costs. Increase the fares until the demand meets the supply.

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. When I get on the CTA at Midway or OHare and ride downtown, I don't think of myself as anything other than a transit user. Compared to taxi or town car, it's a great deal, sure, but it's just another subway/EL ride.

UPE is a lot more useful to the GTA when it tries to be part of the transit network. Train size is an unfortunate constraint, but I'd rather think of Pearson as Just Another GO Transit Stop, with the fare commensurate with GO generally.

- Paul

 

[jcam]

The UPE is not a public service, at least it shouldn't be. When people are using the UPE for their daily transit downtown as opposed to using the TTC service ready-made for that service, the UPE is too cheap. In my book, the UPE should be only lightly subsidized since it's often used by business travelers like myself, who don't care what it costs. Increase the fares until the demand meets the supply.

I live in Weston, commute to downtown on the UP. Its overcrowded when running 2-car trainsets, and generally everyone can sit if they're running 3-car trainsets.

If you're leaving from the Weston station:
UPX: 14 minutes to Union, $5.02 per trip....~$220 per 40-trip month (every 15 minutes).
GO Transit: 19 minutes to Union, $4.76 per trip....~$169 per month PRESTO (2-4 times per hour)
TTC: 59 minutes to Union, (via Lawrence West station), $3.10 per trip....~$138 per month PRESTO

When the price went up in April from $169/month to $220/month, there were very few people who moved from the UP platform to the GO platform to commute, as the Kitchener trains are almost always standing room only in-bound at rush hour, and there is a much better chance of getting a seat going downtown on the UP, even if its a 2-car train. For comparison, no other GO Station within the City limits is more than ~$185/month for GO PRESTO, with those just outside the City boundaries, like Rouge Hill, at about $235.

I'd argue that a 30% premium on a monthly basis for commuters using UP over GO is already high enough. And that's still 18% higher than the outermost GO stations within the City limits (like Guildwood, Milliken or Long Branch).