Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[toraerach]

The problem came in that Weston Coalition framed the issue in a way very attractive to Toronto's, (i hope i don't offend) largely left wing transit advocacy community. The trains were private, running through a low income area, for profit. This pushes the buttons of everyone's inner NDP. If you look at it though, they are all red herrings. None of those factors had any bearing whatsoever on the core issues. If the core issue is declining local land values, it makes no difference if the trains are private, or for profit, or through a poorer as opposed to richer area. All these arguments did was to divert attention from the ARL and into broader socio-economic issues, which had no direct relation with the original EA. Now that we have caved into Weston demands on these red herrings, we can see the core issue all too clearly. Land values. It's never been about anything else.

I think genuinely for a lot of people it wasn't (and isn't) about land values primarily. This includes a lot of the people in Weston themselves and others like me and some other people on this board who don't live there. The original proposal was all around a bad one and that's what mobilized the Weston community and garnered them a good deal of support. Now that a compromised plan has been presented, I think a lot of the people who originally opposed the project will rethink their positions. Of course there were some people opposing it all along for NIMBY reasons, but that doesn't mean that includes everyone against it. This new proposal is more acceptable (though still problematic) to many, and I predict a majority will tone down on intense opposition. The people who had legitimate concerns going into this are either satisfied or know that this is probably the best we're going to get. That leaves the NIMBYs as the most vocal opponents to the project now.

That's my opinion at least. I'm not crazy about this plan, but it's a lot more acceptable to me.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

what's the difference between this plan and the plan presented in 2006? all i can think of is the station in weston and having the trench decked over.


you can take way more cars off the road by building the weston community group's rapid transit proposal. heck, if the business class don't want to mingle with regular folk, have a few of the rapid transit rail cars on the train dedicated to airport only travelers with luxuries and the other cars can carry regular folk.

is it really that much of a problem to tack some extra minutes on the ride? sometimes i wait hours for wheeltrans!

this corridor has the potential to serve so much more people and we're wasting an opportunity that doesn't come by so often. IIRC, snc lavalin or the company that will run blue 22 will have control of those tracks for more than a lifetime!

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

this corridor has the potential to serve so much more people and we're wasting an opportunity that doesn't come by so often. IIRC, snc lavalin or the company that will run blue 22 will have control of those tracks for more than a lifetime!

I agree with you, and others, that this plan might not be what I would consider to be the best solution. I still think a station should be constructed at Pearson that could be used by Blue, GO and VIA. Of course this is not a cheap option, and even though there is more money for transit then there has been in recent years, it is still not just being handled out in sacks to cities. Overall this is probably the best compromise that could come out if it all and at this point I say just build it all.

Of course the only condition I really have is the one you pointed out; that SNC Lavalin not get exclusive rights over tracks. They can operate their service. They can even be subsidized with free tin cans to operate it with. They can make whatever stops they want. But in the end they should have to operate on the tracks as an equal with GO and VIA. Other than that, I saw let them give it a try and see how well it goes. Oh, and no bailouts for them if the service turns out to not be as profitable as they thought it would be.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

no bailouts? are you kidding? the whole project is a bailout! they're building it with public money aren't they? if it was soo profitable, why would they need public money in the first place? especially since such a wealthy company wants it. isn't the fact that they aren't investing their money (for the most part) in it enough to raise some red flags?

this whole blue 22 mess seems like nothing more than a make work program. now i have no problem with making work, but at least build something that would have the most use. i don't care who builds it, the most important thing is that it will be useful to the most amount of people as possible.


all i know is that if i was a business class person, i wouldn't take the people mover, then transfer to the blue 22, head to union station and then have to find a way to my final destination either by using path, the ttc or a taxi. if i were a business class person, i'd take a airport limo from the airport to my final destination. i don't care what kind of traffic there is on the roads, it would be way faster and require less effort and give more privacy to conduct business things. now if anyone wants to take the blue 22 for fun, that's another reason.

 

[nfitz]

I get the feeling that much of the controversy over this has been caused by differing understandings of what "NIMBYism" is. In my understandig NIMBYism is opposition to a development based on a perceived damage to local land values. The actual merits (or lack) of a project are irrelevant.

I don't think the NIMBYism has anything to do with land values.

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (2nd edition) simply defines a NIMBY as "a person who objects to unwanted groups or developments appearing in his or her neighbourhood". I don't see how this doesn't fit those who are objecting to the rail upgrades in Weston - particularly when complaining about noise and odour.

 

[kEiThZ]

While I did sympathize with the residents of Weston before, their opposition at present is starting to look a lot like the anti-Porter crowd...we were fine getting a place to an airport as long as there are no planes there....some of these weston folks seems to have the same idea about the rail corridor. Big cities need transportation hubs, nodes and networks. If you don't want to live beside one, plan accordingly. The folks who live along the GO lines and near the above ground TTC corridors deal with it just fine. And they don't get their lines dug into a trench. They should be grateful that Metrolinx listened and for once has done something atypical for a government agency: listened. At this point if they are not satisfied, too bad.

On to talking about the service itself....Prometheus has it bang on....

all i know is that if i was a business class person, i wouldn't take the people mover, then transfer to the blue 22, head to union station and then have to find a way to my final destination either by using path, the ttc or a taxi. if i were a business class person, i'd take a airport limo from the airport to my final destination. i don't care what kind of traffic there is on the roads, it would be way faster and require less effort and give more privacy to conduct business things. now if anyone wants to take the blue 22 for fun, that's another reason.

For the life of me I can't figure out why the transit services or the GTAA won't build a bus/rail hub (GO, VIA, TTC, MT, BT, VIVA, etc) at Pearson. Keeping that people mover in place is a big mistake. It will detract ridership from any ARL by adding the extra transfer and sowing confusion (I have to take a train to catch a train from the same location I am at now?). Either put two stops in place (T1, T3) or build a new bus/rail terminal that connects to both terminals by (moving) walkways. I am surprised the GTAA is not jumping on this.

 

[lordmandeep]

And the inner Conservative says "screw you poor people, I want my express air link. Get a job, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop whining! Now where's my tax cut?"

That is my view to this farce....

 

[waterloowarrior]

On one of the display boards, Metrolinx says that "The RTP did not consider a subway service as appropriate for [the Georgetown] corridor. A subway service would have to be underground all the way to Union Station for both the entire Georgetown and Lakeshore corridors and would be prohibitively expensive and take many more years to develop"

any comments?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

why would it have to be underground all the way?

 

[TOareaFan]

I get the feeling that much of the controversy over this has been caused by differing understandings of what "NIMBYism" is. In my understandig NIMBYism is opposition to a development based on a perceived damage to local land values. The actual merits (or lack) of a project are irrelevant.

Maybe we should have a thread discussing what NIMBYism is. My definition always was "opposition to something simply because it was located near you".

Example....we all agree that group homes or halfway houses are good....just don't put them near me.

Example 2.....I agree that nuclear power is an important part of an integrated electricity strategy.....just don't build a nuke plant near me.

Example 3.....Yes we should have more train based transit.....just don't run those trains behind my house.

 

[TOareaFan]

no bailouts? are you kidding? the whole project is a bailout! they're building it with public money aren't they? if it was soo profitable, why would they need public money in the first place? especially since such a wealthy company wants it. isn't the fact that they aren't investing their money (for the most part) in it enough to raise some red flags?

All that it says to me is that the current infrastructure in place is not sufficient to support a private system alongside, VIA, GO and freight. We, the public, should already know that because GO has been telling those of us on the NW line for around 20 years that the current infrastructure is not sufficient to add any more trains to the GO service.

So, the Blue 22 is simply one of the additional options that becomes possible with improved infrastructure. The other (much larger) possibility is improved GO service...which has been announced. The infrastructure is a public benefit and it should be paid for by the public. SNC should invest their funds in the private service they hope to operate upon this public infrastructure. Greyhound did not build the roads....but the existance of the roads made it possible for them to invest in an inter-city bus service.....same concept.

all i know is that if i was a business class person, i wouldn't take the people mover, then transfer to the blue 22 (or otherwise connect to the airport - ie. a people mover connection to Woodbine or Malton), head to union station and then have to find a way to my final destination either by using path, the ttc or a taxi. if i were a business class person, i'd take a airport limo from the airport to my final destination. i don't care what kind of traffic there is on the roads, it would be way faster and require less effort and give more privacy to conduct business things. now if anyone wants to take the blue 22 for fun, that's another reason.

The challenge for Blue 22 will be to make this a more efficient Pearson-Downtown connection than the limo you mention. The business person (intentional deleting of the word class from your description....as a "business guy" I don't know anyone that describes themself that way) understands the time value of money better than anything else. If this train service ends up being more time efficient, it will win out over car/taxi/limo if not, it won't.

For that to happen, this train has to have as few stops as possible (I used to question the Bloor stop but got over it because that station is, kinda, connected to the bloor subway) but have no understanding of why this train needs to stop in Weston. Are people going to use this train as a substitute for GO - Weston trips (doubt it as the cost differential is substantial) and are people going to get on at Weston to go to the airport (doubt that as a cab trip from there to the airport is likely faster and cheaper).....having this train stop at Weston is nothing more than a political concession to remove the roadblock....once it has operated for a year and people see a stop that no one gets on or off at, they will be allowed to breeze through the statio un-impeded.

As for GO serving the terminal....wow, who is going to explain to all those commuters on the GO line that the price of getting additional service is that each train will now detour through the terminal (what would that add 2 -3 minutes?) and that the stop at the terminal will be much longer (people with bags take longer to get off and on trains) so your 43 minute trip from Brampton is now, what, 1 hour?

The very most that GO should do is have some system, somewhere (either Malton, Weston, Woodbine?) where people can get off the GO and get on the Blue 22.

The current proposal is a good compromise between the public system and a private one. The public builds the infrastructure, the public system gets a massive boost from that spending (ie. the improved GO service along the entire line) and the private system can leverage that to offer a premium system which, in turn, brings some public benefit (presumably there is a track time rental fee, there is reduction in road traffic, smog, etc).

Win-Win-Win.....now if we could just find a way to not impact those Weston back yards

 

[Whoaccio]

And the inner Conservative says "screw you poor people, I want my express air link. Get a job, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop whining! Now where's my tax cut?"

This is exactly my point. The issue isn't about transit, it is about a much bigger socio-economic pissing match between pseudo-socialistic NDP types, and the rest of the city. Fine, Weston is poor. Lets help them. Maybe give incentives to local business or give the area a property tax cut to aid local residents. I think reasonable people can accept that there is no one solution to these issues. What most reasonable people can't expect is that a train will solve any of this. There are plenty of appropriate forums to complain about general socio-economic issues in Weston. The EA for a train, I'm sorry to say, is not one of them.

 

[nfitz]

now if we could just find a way to not impact those Weston back yards

There's an easy solution there. As they insist that all these trains stop in Weston, then the density of the area must be increased to generate enough trips to justify the trains stopping. So there won't be many back yards left!

 

[lordmandeep]

This is exactly my point. The issue isn't about transit, it is about a much bigger socio-economic pissing match between pseudo-socialistic NDP types, and the rest of the city. Fine, Weston is poor. Lets help them. Maybe give incentives to local business or give the area a property tax cut to aid local residents. I think reasonable people can accept that there is no one solution to these issues. What most reasonable people can't expect is that a train will solve any of this. There are plenty of appropriate forums to complain about general socio-economic issues in Weston. The EA for a train, I'm sorry to say, is not one of them.

That is 100% true there ^^^^

People like that are holding the city back in many ways. For example how City Hall has greatly increased the power and influence of Unions on this city.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Complaining about John Street closing. Its the fact that a diesel train will pass through Weston every 3 1/2 minutes with the ARL, GO Transit, Frieght trains, and VIA trains coming through. Even a future planned VIA link from Toronto to Montreal will ultimately pass through Weston!
Its the fact that there are schools and churches and senior homes right next to the tracks. Yet no one seems to care.
Its okay, people in Parkdale, Liberty Village and other areas in Toronto are starting to take notice.
This line needs to be electrified and buried through most of Weston.
If we are going to spend $800 million, then build it right the first time.

The tracks are there! You should expect rail traffic where there are tracks. Should the tracks be mothballed because they run through 'your' backyard? It's no different than someone moving in near pearson 30 odd years ago and seeing the flight traffic increase from a few hundred movements a day back then to, I'm guessing, over 1000 movements and growing today. The infastructure is there and it is going to be used. Yes just as in the airport example there should be some concessions for noise, safety etc due to activity on the infastructure but we shouldn't block something that will improve the region on a whole just because it is in someone's backyard.

Electrification yes, and that should be the end game along this line but for the time being this is what we've got that can be up and running in the quickest amount of time.

Toronto to Montreal VIA will run through Weston? Are you sure? Is this more of VIA's braindead circuitous routing of it's trains? Because last I checked the Union Terminal is to the East of Weston and Montreal is East of Union. There would be no reason for VIA trains running between Toronto and Montreal to be in Weston. To suggest such a thing is asinine.