smallspy
Senior Member
There is a market for used ties, but they are not allowed for mainline work.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
There is a market for used ties, but they are not allowed for mainline work.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Concrete ties vs. wood,steel and composite tie types...
Dan and everyone:
I am a proponent of using concrete ties on rail tracks but as I have learned they do have their drawbacks...
What Amtrak and the Long Island Rail Road have learned is that if concrete ties are manufactured with sub-standard
concrete they will not hold up over time to the daily wear-and-tear of train traffic and they will need to be replaced far
earlier then the potential 50 year lifespan that they are supposed to have...They have both needed to replace concrete
tie segments with newer updated ties and I will add that for concrete ties to hold up well they need good ballast/roadbed...
Concrete ties are usually placed in track by a "track laying system" or TLS which replaces the older and installs the newer
ties (and welded rail) in one operation on a given track...In many cases wood ties are changed out in date intervals - on
the LIRR wood tie replacement is usually scheduled every 5 years on average on a specific track or tracks...
Steel ties are good for applications in which wood or concrete is impractical such as in tunnels or on switches depending on
the location and I do feel that composite ties have their place and are potentially a reasonable cost alternative to wood or concrete
See: www.tietek.net as an example - I will add that the LIRR is using them on some lines intermingled with wood ties...
Yes-concrete ties are likely to be damaged in a derailment: The recent MNCR derailment at Spuyten Duyvil occurred on tracks that
used concrete ties - and afterwards the damaged ties were replaced with wood ties in that area and nearby where a CSX freight train
derailment happened this past summer...
LI MIKE
Dan and everyone:
I am a proponent of using concrete ties on rail tracks but as I have learned they do have their drawbacks...
What Amtrak and the Long Island Rail Road have learned is that if concrete ties are manufactured with sub-standard
concrete they will not hold up over time to the daily wear-and-tear of train traffic and they will need to be replaced far
earlier then the potential 50 year lifespan that they are supposed to have...They have both needed to replace concrete
tie segments with newer updated ties and I will add that for concrete ties to hold up well they need good ballast/roadbed...
Concrete ties are usually placed in track by a "track laying system" or TLS which replaces the older and installs the newer
ties (and welded rail) in one operation on a given track...In many cases wood ties are changed out in date intervals - on
the LIRR wood tie replacement is usually scheduled every 5 years on average on a specific track or tracks...
Steel ties are good for applications in which wood or concrete is impractical such as in tunnels or on switches depending on
the location and I do feel that composite ties have their place and are potentially a reasonable cost alternative to wood or concrete
See: www.tietek.net as an example - I will add that the LIRR is using them on some lines intermingled with wood ties...
Yes-concrete ties are likely to be damaged in a derailment: The recent MNCR derailment at Spuyten Duyvil occurred on tracks that
used concrete ties - and afterwards the damaged ties were replaced with wood ties in that area and nearby where a CSX freight train
derailment happened this past summer...
LI MIKE
Last edited:
TOareaFan
Superstar
Anyone know what was in the bill?
twitter said:
nfitz
Superstar
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&Intranet=&BillID=2811
Basically it says "The Corporation shall ensure that any passenger railway system established between downtown Toronto and Toronto Pearson International Airport is not powered by diesel fuel."
It was defeated today BTW. As if there was any chance the Liberals and Tories would cancel a billion-dollar project, and all that entails!
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
^^I see what you did there!
ahmedyusali
Member
drum118
Superstar
Transit Open House
There are a number of PIC coming up for the next month including the electrification.
You can find the events and location here: http://transiturban.ca/transit/event.html
There are a number of PIC coming up for the next month including the electrification.
You can find the events and location here: http://transiturban.ca/transit/event.html
drum118
Superstar
Finally found time to check somethings out that I have not seen in the last 4/5 months.
Bloor:
Forming is underway for the new entrance and road bed mats are on site.
No work on the platforms has taken place since my last visit, but some rebar in the ground south of the current temporary platform.
Old Weston Rd/Diamond
The tops of the 2 retaining walls are complete with bracing in place.
Some work has started on the west retaining wall for tunnel 2 south of CP tracks. The retaining wall on the Old Weston Rd bridge has yet to be finish.
I understand most of the floor and all the retaining walls in the tunnel 1 has yet to be pour. If this is the case, then moving the current line to the flyunder will not take place in March as plan. The walls still can be pour once the the line is move since there will be no trains there during the day like there is now and no big deal.
The one thing I noticed was there was no back filling if the west side of the west retaining was as plan when the deck spans moves took place. Save them work when it come time to build the next set of deck span for the other tunnel. Also time and money not doing it since there was more than enough room for the bed of the current line.
Black Creek.
All the bridges are 100% completed.
A new switch has been installed on the south side of the bridges as there is a new bypass track being built from it going over into CP MacTier Sub corridor. I expect this bypass track will go south to the St Clair Area to allow the current corridor road bed to be rebuilt 100%. Crews were working on the new track. New 4 track signal Mast in place south of Rogers Rd.
Denison Rd
I don't think this grade separation road will be finish this year as it is still in the same condition as it was in the spring of 2013. Metrolinx may have an issue with the contractor and the reason for the delay.
New duel side 4 track mast north of the road.
Weston Station
Most of the new south tunnel for the new platform is built, but no work on the platform or the tunnel going east.
The map shows the north tunnel going to the east side of the corridor being completed in 2013, but it is not. They are rebuilding the tunnel entrance wall now since they have relocated the sales office to the church property.
The north end of the new platform has precast decking on the support piers.
King-Church Flyunder.
The new King St bridge is open and that was fast since there was no support for it the last time I saw the area. Retaining walls going up south of King St with most of it in place south of John St. John Street has most of the floor in for the flyunder. With Church St closed now, the area is 100% graded. The area north of Church is graded for the floor slab to be pour.
The lost time for this area is almost back on schedule.
Weston Rd Bridge
Traffic is using the new lower level southbound lanes as the northbound have yet to be lower.
The only thing that remains of the old bridge is the footing for the centre pier and the east retaining wall. The new west retaining wall is completed. A big different look with the new bridge in place and the old one gone.
Lot more up on site
Bloor:
Forming is underway for the new entrance and road bed mats are on site.
No work on the platforms has taken place since my last visit, but some rebar in the ground south of the current temporary platform.
Old Weston Rd/Diamond
The tops of the 2 retaining walls are complete with bracing in place.
Some work has started on the west retaining wall for tunnel 2 south of CP tracks. The retaining wall on the Old Weston Rd bridge has yet to be finish.
I understand most of the floor and all the retaining walls in the tunnel 1 has yet to be pour. If this is the case, then moving the current line to the flyunder will not take place in March as plan. The walls still can be pour once the the line is move since there will be no trains there during the day like there is now and no big deal.
The one thing I noticed was there was no back filling if the west side of the west retaining was as plan when the deck spans moves took place. Save them work when it come time to build the next set of deck span for the other tunnel. Also time and money not doing it since there was more than enough room for the bed of the current line.
Black Creek.
All the bridges are 100% completed.
A new switch has been installed on the south side of the bridges as there is a new bypass track being built from it going over into CP MacTier Sub corridor. I expect this bypass track will go south to the St Clair Area to allow the current corridor road bed to be rebuilt 100%. Crews were working on the new track. New 4 track signal Mast in place south of Rogers Rd.
Denison Rd
I don't think this grade separation road will be finish this year as it is still in the same condition as it was in the spring of 2013. Metrolinx may have an issue with the contractor and the reason for the delay.
New duel side 4 track mast north of the road.
Weston Station
Most of the new south tunnel for the new platform is built, but no work on the platform or the tunnel going east.
The map shows the north tunnel going to the east side of the corridor being completed in 2013, but it is not. They are rebuilding the tunnel entrance wall now since they have relocated the sales office to the church property.
The north end of the new platform has precast decking on the support piers.
King-Church Flyunder.
The new King St bridge is open and that was fast since there was no support for it the last time I saw the area. Retaining walls going up south of King St with most of it in place south of John St. John Street has most of the floor in for the flyunder. With Church St closed now, the area is 100% graded. The area north of Church is graded for the floor slab to be pour.
The lost time for this area is almost back on schedule.
Weston Rd Bridge
Traffic is using the new lower level southbound lanes as the northbound have yet to be lower.
The only thing that remains of the old bridge is the footing for the centre pier and the east retaining wall. The new west retaining wall is completed. A big different look with the new bridge in place and the old one gone.
Lot more up on site
p5connex
Active Member
Great update - thanks drum!
With regards to the train-ties issue. This is something that has bothered me for a number of years. Yes, like lots of things concrete ties cost more, but if they are made to the same standards mandated by the EU, you will not have any of the issues experienced by Amtrak a few years back. Furthermore, they are far more stable, have longer lifespan and are generally more environmentally friendly - not to mention, safer. A number of years ago my father met a German businessman, who was in Toronto selling the city/province on concrete rail ties from Germany. Needless to say, he left the country utterly frustrated and dismayed by the near-nearsightedness of Canadians. Ultimately, if we haven't debated the life out of the idea or proposal, we will turn to the status-quo method of "it's good-enough, oh and - it will last the few years I am in government. That is what we are faced with here. Zero political will, due to cost - "build cheap, maintain expensive" one of my profs once said!
p5
With regards to the train-ties issue. This is something that has bothered me for a number of years. Yes, like lots of things concrete ties cost more, but if they are made to the same standards mandated by the EU, you will not have any of the issues experienced by Amtrak a few years back. Furthermore, they are far more stable, have longer lifespan and are generally more environmentally friendly - not to mention, safer. A number of years ago my father met a German businessman, who was in Toronto selling the city/province on concrete rail ties from Germany. Needless to say, he left the country utterly frustrated and dismayed by the near-nearsightedness of Canadians. Ultimately, if we haven't debated the life out of the idea or proposal, we will turn to the status-quo method of "it's good-enough, oh and - it will last the few years I am in government. That is what we are faced with here. Zero political will, due to cost - "build cheap, maintain expensive" one of my profs once said!
p5
smallspy
Senior Member
The issues that Amtrak had a number of years ago notwithstanding, they do have their drawbacks, which is why they aren't used everywhere. Hell, I guess you can consider that issue with a huge number of faulty ties another potential drawback of using concrete ties, although it is a bit of one-off situation and not likely to repeat itself. The fact of the matter is that a crew of 10 guys can go out and lay 2 or 3 miles of track in a day using almost exclusively hand tools if they are using wood ties - that is simply impossible if using concrete ties. The work is a lot more mechanized by necessity, and while that normally means that it would be cheaper, not every railroad owns the equipment capable of dealing with concrete ties.
That's why wood had remained so prevalent in North America (more in Canada than in the US), and why plastic ties - which offer many of the same benefits as wood ties as well as being far longer lasting - are becoming more and more popular.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Thanks for the photos, drum.
Is the clearance for this bridge 4.2m? Considering that it was a total rebuild, why not just raise the bridge (or lower the road) to accommodate the standard 4.4 m clearance?
Is the clearance for this bridge 4.2m? Considering that it was a total rebuild, why not just raise the bridge (or lower the road) to accommodate the standard 4.4 m clearance?
vegeta_skyline
Senior Member
Never cared much for concrete ties, the difference is not probably significant enough to be noticeable by the casual rider but when you spend hundreds of hours on them each year you really notice the rougher ride and increased vibrations. Like smallspy said, the optimal solution would be plastic ties. Although it seems they still haven't made their way to Canada just yet. For now its just another one of those railway improvements I'm impatiently waiting for.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
That old concrete support to the right was torn down this past week.
junctionist
Senior Member
They're planning on lowering the roadway .3 m.
BurlOak
Senior Member
The Code requires 5.0m clearance for a steel beam bridge.
Anything less than 4.5m must be signed - but there is a hidden safety factor.
Last edited: