Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

Sir Novelty Fashion said:
QUESTION: Will electrification require entirely new trainsets? Can the current Bombardier bi-levels get dragged along by an electric-fed engine? Or does this require a complete redo?
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Potentially, a new electrified self-propelled bilevel could pull two old bilevel coaches along with him. So a train of 6 units could consist of 2 new EMU bilevels, 4 old bilevels, and no locomotive.
 
kettal said:
Potentially, a new electrified self-propelled bilevel could pull two old bilevel coaches along with him. So a train of 6 units could consist of 2 new EMU bilevels, 4 old bilevels, and no locomotive.
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That sounds too complicated. I think GO would prefer just to buy new electric locos.
 
I would expect GO to get electric locomotives as well. There are numerous agencies with electric locomotives placed at one end and a special cab car at the opposite end which looks like the locomotive but is filled with passengers. Locomotives give greater flexibility for train consists.
 
^That's not entirely true. EMUs come in 2 and 3-car sets that can be coupled together based on the demand. It's not unusual to see a 3-car EMU on the weekend, and a 9 car (3 X 3) EMU during rush hour. They're a lot easier to couple together during operation than a locomotive-hauled consist. In Munich, there is an S-bahn line from the airport where two trains meet from two different lines and then attach themselves together at the "fork" station to continue their journey into the city as a married pair.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
That sounds too complicated. I think GO would prefer just to buy new electric locos.
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Given how stupid and incompetent GO management is, you're probably right.

Electric locomotives are as slow and heavy as diesel locomotives and are way more expensive. The whole benefit to electrification is to use EMU, which are faster at accelerating, cheaper to build and maintain, and can be more easily split into different configurations.

I'm really sick of the north american belief that commuter rail should be locomotive hauled. If you took that idea to Europe, Asia, or Australia, you would be laughed out of the room.
 
You can make electric locos as fast as emus by putting in the same equivalent hp engine set as the emu train would have and you can make emus as slow as loco trains by adding wagons. acceleration speed is not a function of emu vs loco but hp vs train weight.

When Go tenders for electric trainsets, hopefully they will tender for just that, trainsets. Then we will see if EMU or Locos are better in the long run.
 
kettal said:
Electric locomotives are as slow and heavy as diesel locomotives and are way more expensive. The whole benefit to electrification is to use EMU, which are faster at accelerating, cheaper to build and maintain, and can be more easily split into different configurations.

I'm really sick of the north american belief that commuter rail should be locomotive hauled. If you took that idea to Europe, Asia, or Australia, you would be laughed out of the room.
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It's called sweating the assets. GO just spent a small fortune on new diesels, and they are going to run them into the ground before replacing them completely.

The more significant failing of GO's planners in my opinion was not ordering coaches that could be self-propelled. Even the first generation of GO coaches could run without locomotives in off-peak periods. The bilevels should have been designed the same way, or at least with the option to convert them to self-propelled operation or electrification.
 
DHLawrence85 said:
It's called sweating the assets. GO just spent a small fortune on new diesels, and they are going to run them into the ground before replacing them completely.

The more significant failing of GO's planners in my opinion was not ordering coaches that could be self-propelled. Even the first generation of GO coaches could run without locomotives in off-peak periods. The bilevels should have been designed the same way, or at least with the option to convert them to self-propelled operation or electrification.
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but that is because 1st gen GO trans were DMUs then they realized that loco hauled push pull trains are cheaper to run and maintain
 
Darwinkgo said:
You can make electric locos as fast as emus by putting in the same equivalent hp engine set as the emu train would have and you can make emus as slow as loco trains by adding wagons. acceleration speed is not a function of emu vs loco but hp vs train weight.
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Very true. Electric locomotives tend to be twice as powerful as diesel locomotives. From what I can tell, diesel passenger locomotives tend to have around 4000hp and electric locomotives tend to have around 8000hp.

Here are the common North American diesel passenger locos:
VIA Rail's GE P42DC: 4200hp
Amtrak's GE P32AC-DM: 3200hp
GO transit's MPI MP40: 4000hp
VIA Rail and Amtrak's EMD F40PH: 3200hp

And here are the three main electric passenger locos in North America:
Amtrak's Bombardier HHP-8: 8000hp
Amtrak's EMD AEM-7: 7000hp, Amtrak is in the process upgraded them to 8000hp
New Jersey Transit's ALP-46: 7100-7500hp. These are commuter locomotives pulling bilevels, so they may be the most relevant to GO transit.

I would like them to eventually run EMUs, but I would be quite happy with running something like a Siemens Taurus in the meantime.
 
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reaperexpress said:
Very true. Electric locomotives tend to be twice as powerful as diesel locomotives. From what I can tell, diesel passenger locomotives tend to have around 4000hp and electric locomotives tend to have around 8000hp.

Here are the common North American diesel passenger locos:
VIA Rail's GE P42DC: 4200hp
Amtrak's GE P32AC-DM: 3200hp
GO transit's MPI MP40: 4000hp
VIA Rail and Amtrak's EMD F40PH: 3200hp

And here are the three main electric passenger locos in North America:
Amtrak's Bombardier HHP-8: 8000hp
Amtrak's EMD AEM-7: 7000hp, Amtrak is in the process upgraded them to 8000hp
New Jersey Transit's ALP-46: 7100-7500hp. These are commuter locomotives pulling bilevels, so they may be the most relevant to GO transit.

I would like them to eventually run EMUs, but I would be quite happy with running something like a Siemens Taurus (8600hp) in the meantime.
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What does it have to do with EMUs being having a faster acceleration than locos? Yes, acceleration speed is not a function of EMUs vs loco but hp vs train weight. The point of EMUs is to use all self propelling vehicles so the ratio between HP and weight will always be the same for EMUs no matter how many MUs you add. Dat is the main selling point of using an MU system
 
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If you look at the various infrastructure expansion EAs/Studies for maintenance facilities, they are planning huge ~400m buildings capable of servicing a full 10 or 12 car with 2 locomotives consist in one go. At $100M a pop, I don’t think GO is looking for the versatility of running short trains. The demand for passenger service is there, but the corridor capacity is missing. We’ll definitely see EMUs discussed in the Electrification Study in December, but it’s going to be a decade or two before we’ve done all the infrastructure improvements (allowing 30min or better all-day service) that will make EMUs attractive enough to mix into the fleet.
 
Article

Article from today's National Post:

$16.6M to increase GO Transit capacity, rail link to Pearson airport

Steve Darley, National Post

The federal and provincial governments yesterday announced $16.6-million to expand west-end railway bridges to increase GO Transit capacity and facilitate the rail link between Union Station and Pearson airport. The money, split equally between the two governments, will go to widen six rail bridges to allow for a fourth track. "GO Transit trains in the Georgetown South corridor are already operating at capacity and that's why we need to move forward with this expansion right now," Ontario Transport Minister Kathleen Wynne said. "In addition, corridor improvements will help enable the rail link between Union Station and Pearson airport, which is a key transportation initiative supporting the Pan Am Games." Ms. Wynne said the bridges slated for improvements are Bloor Street, Brock Street, Dufferin Street, Dupont Street and Queen Street, as well as Lansdowne Avenue.
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Link
 
This press release doesn't make much sense to me. Currently there are bridges current / capable of supporting the same or more at Bloor (4/5), Brock (5/7), Dufferin (under construction already for 7), Dupont (4/5), Queen (under construction already for 7), Lansdowne (5/6). Even more complicated that the EA called for Bloor (6), Brock (8), Dufferin (8), Dupont (6), Queen (8), and Lansdowne (8). I also question whether or not they will "widen" steel bridges or simply lay another box next to the existing ones. As it stands I have no idea whether or not this means there will be 6 tracks through the area (2 old CP + 4 old CN), or 4 total. Also, what does this announcement have to do with Queen and Dufferin?
 
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