HotStuff
New Member
I find this project disgusting, i want a casino. Maybe somewhere around the Wood-Bine track, but this project rlly ruins the view of the skyline when looking down from the cn tower. Instead of skyline well see 2 tall condos.
Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli
- Thread starter Conrad Black
- Start date
Grimace
Active Member
Yes, it would be helpful to the transit conversation if people recognized that the reason our transit is inadequate is because of its immense use and not because it is small potatoes.
Critique
Active Member
What does Vaughan mean when he says casinos cost jobs? That might be the most idiotic thing he has said ever, unless I'm misunderstanding...
Casinos will bring jobs and he is talking as if it is a great peril to the economy...
gristle
Senior Member
Think a little more deeply. A casino will poach the nearby businesses and that will lead to job losses. The facility will have a casino-subsidized theatre, shopping facilities, restaurants and hotel - all courtesy of gambling proceeds. That will undermine or suck business away from nearby hotels, shops, restaurants and theatres. The casino is built not there for the benefit of the city, but it is there to make a profit for the owners. They don't give a shit if they kill local businesses because that will also be a benefit to them. Then it'll be a case of nowhere to go but the casino, and the house always wins.
Vaughan is correct; these proposals have played it fast and loose with the numbers and the promises. He's hardly "idiotic" for questioning the smoke and mirrors that these casino dudes employ to make their killing.
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jje1000
Senior Member
You're right about Aria being owned by MGM, but it has its own brand and style, it's not 'MGM Grand CityCentre'. Cesars Entertainment has several non-chain properties, I don't see why they couldn't open a unique one here instead of importing one already used in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and Windsor.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Gee, who do you believe
From today..
Kahlil Philander and Bo Bernhard surveyed peer-reviewed scientific literature and concluded “there is no strong evidence to suggest a GTA resort-casino will adversely affect nearby businesses.â€
http://igi.unlv.edu/pdf/articles/InformingThePublicDebateCannibalization.pdf
valkoholic
Active Member
Eh? So every other business in the City is run for the benefit of the people and a casino is run for the benefit of Evil Inc.?
I'm lost as to how a restaurant at a casino would take away jobs from a restaurant near a casino.
I wish gambling was on Vaughan's list of fun things to do (therefore making it an acceptable actvity for the other 2.5 million people he is speaking for), because casinos can be really fun.
joey_122@hotmail.com
New Member
is it possible that both the convention center and the ex site both get casinos thatwould be awesome!
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
If Ford likes it, then casinos are dead in Toronto.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I don't think it will suck much business away from other establishments since it is one casino in a very large city but I do have two concerns:
a) Money Laundering
b) Gambling Addicts
Both of these concerns could be alleviated by the casino being a cashless casino where the casino only deals with electronic currency and chips and the only way to get money into the casino is via credit card and providing ID, and the only way to get money out of the casino is a cheque or electronic payment. The casinos don't like that though because it means people can't spontaneously drop the money in their pockets in a machine as they walk by, and of course do casinos themselves care about money laundering or gambling additions as both improve their bottom line.
In smaller locales I have no doubt that it did lead to a reduction in jobs, especially good paying ones. Toronto is probably big enough to absorb a casino but it definitely isn't a net benefit to the city. People have a certain amount of income which is spent on necessities and then on discretionary purchases including electronics, clothing, eating out, and entertainment. If the casino comes and makes $300 of someones budget disappear in a few hours then the person isn't going to be eating out and shopping as much the rest of the month. Casinos have the ability to take someone who waits for sales, avoids expensive restaurants, and shops around and have that person drop more money in the casino than on the dress that was too expensive. People turn down buying the thing they want but for some reason perceive there to be value in dropping money for bad odds on a dream. When you think of other businesses there is a whole supply chain of workers involved from the farmer or natural resource worker, through production, through shipping, and then the workers in the business establishments. What is the supply chain for bad odds on a dream?
a) Money Laundering
b) Gambling Addicts
Both of these concerns could be alleviated by the casino being a cashless casino where the casino only deals with electronic currency and chips and the only way to get money into the casino is via credit card and providing ID, and the only way to get money out of the casino is a cheque or electronic payment. The casinos don't like that though because it means people can't spontaneously drop the money in their pockets in a machine as they walk by, and of course do casinos themselves care about money laundering or gambling additions as both improve their bottom line.
In smaller locales I have no doubt that it did lead to a reduction in jobs, especially good paying ones. Toronto is probably big enough to absorb a casino but it definitely isn't a net benefit to the city. People have a certain amount of income which is spent on necessities and then on discretionary purchases including electronics, clothing, eating out, and entertainment. If the casino comes and makes $300 of someones budget disappear in a few hours then the person isn't going to be eating out and shopping as much the rest of the month. Casinos have the ability to take someone who waits for sales, avoids expensive restaurants, and shops around and have that person drop more money in the casino than on the dress that was too expensive. People turn down buying the thing they want but for some reason perceive there to be value in dropping money for bad odds on a dream. When you think of other businesses there is a whole supply chain of workers involved from the farmer or natural resource worker, through production, through shipping, and then the workers in the business establishments. What is the supply chain for bad odds on a dream?
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Critique
Active Member
http://www.osga.com/artman/publish/article_10655.shtml
MGM Resort's Vision is best for Toronto
"That brings us to Exhibition Place and MGM Resort's proposal to spend up to $4 billion to build a resort casino there. I spoke to Steve Wolstenholme, the Canadian representative for MGM resorts, and he was happy to give me some indication of the company's casino vision. "We want to create an integrated resort that Torontonians will be proud of," Wolstenholme said. "We don't just want to just offer a box of slots." Wolstenholme added that MGM's vision would see a hotel, a world class entertainment venue and dining. The casino space would take up less than 10% of the venue but is an integral part of the plans. At the same time MGM wants to work with existing hotels and restaurants to ensure that all local businesses in Toronto benefit. "Maybe one time someone would stay at our hotel and the next time they would go to a partner hotel in the city. We would encourage that." Wolstenholme also acknowledged that the CNE is a Toronto legacy and MGM would prefer to incorporate the history of the CNE into the development. That would mean keeping Rico Coliseum, BMO Field and the Metro Trade Centre and MGM would likely work with the Toronto Marlies and Toronto FC soccer teams to help promote their products as well. As for parking and transportation, MGM is willing to do whatever it must to ensure that those issues will not be a concern. "The free flow of traffic is essential to the success of the resort, and MGM wants to ensure that happens. We want to be part of the solution," Wolstenholme said. In fact the comment "we want to be part of the solution," was stated throughout the interview. Whether it means helping create a fast link from Union Station to the CNE grounds, whether it means creating a private-public partnership on subways, or whether it means offering courses at local colleges to help create industry jobs, MGM Resorts plans to be part of that solution. And the company has the resources and experience to do so.
MGM also wants to make sure that the surroundings of the integrated resort are appealing and thus believes that the beautification of Ontario Place should be incorporated into the project. Consequently MGM's vision would see a green space at Ontario Place and a large family area. That is precisely what John Tory, who was given the job of deciding what to do with Ontario Place, has stated he would like to see. Again the redesign of the surrounding areas and creating a family friendly environment at Ontario Place is being considered as part of the solution."
...
"The decision on whether Toronto wants to host a casino now wrests with Toronto council. The MGM casino would create upwards of 5,000 construction jobs and approximately 8000 jobs at the resort. "And these are good, well paying jobs too," Wolstenholme said. The resort is expected to take 3-4 years to build but would hopefully be done with minimal disruptions. Mayor Rob Ford wants the casino in Toronto as do many citizens but many of councillors currently do not. The province has stated that they would not force a casino on any city that doesn't want it but councillors have to look at the potential revenue from all the casino proposals and truly decide what is best for the city. And they need to do so without the silly misconceptions that it would lead to red light districts or an increase in gang activity. If the councillors did their homework and looked at the facts they would conclude that this is an opportunity that Toronto just can't pass up. And of all the casino proposals, MGM's vision is by far and away the best for all Toronto residents."
MGM Resort's Vision is best for Toronto
"That brings us to Exhibition Place and MGM Resort's proposal to spend up to $4 billion to build a resort casino there. I spoke to Steve Wolstenholme, the Canadian representative for MGM resorts, and he was happy to give me some indication of the company's casino vision. "We want to create an integrated resort that Torontonians will be proud of," Wolstenholme said. "We don't just want to just offer a box of slots." Wolstenholme added that MGM's vision would see a hotel, a world class entertainment venue and dining. The casino space would take up less than 10% of the venue but is an integral part of the plans. At the same time MGM wants to work with existing hotels and restaurants to ensure that all local businesses in Toronto benefit. "Maybe one time someone would stay at our hotel and the next time they would go to a partner hotel in the city. We would encourage that." Wolstenholme also acknowledged that the CNE is a Toronto legacy and MGM would prefer to incorporate the history of the CNE into the development. That would mean keeping Rico Coliseum, BMO Field and the Metro Trade Centre and MGM would likely work with the Toronto Marlies and Toronto FC soccer teams to help promote their products as well. As for parking and transportation, MGM is willing to do whatever it must to ensure that those issues will not be a concern. "The free flow of traffic is essential to the success of the resort, and MGM wants to ensure that happens. We want to be part of the solution," Wolstenholme said. In fact the comment "we want to be part of the solution," was stated throughout the interview. Whether it means helping create a fast link from Union Station to the CNE grounds, whether it means creating a private-public partnership on subways, or whether it means offering courses at local colleges to help create industry jobs, MGM Resorts plans to be part of that solution. And the company has the resources and experience to do so.
MGM also wants to make sure that the surroundings of the integrated resort are appealing and thus believes that the beautification of Ontario Place should be incorporated into the project. Consequently MGM's vision would see a green space at Ontario Place and a large family area. That is precisely what John Tory, who was given the job of deciding what to do with Ontario Place, has stated he would like to see. Again the redesign of the surrounding areas and creating a family friendly environment at Ontario Place is being considered as part of the solution."
...
"The decision on whether Toronto wants to host a casino now wrests with Toronto council. The MGM casino would create upwards of 5,000 construction jobs and approximately 8000 jobs at the resort. "And these are good, well paying jobs too," Wolstenholme said. The resort is expected to take 3-4 years to build but would hopefully be done with minimal disruptions. Mayor Rob Ford wants the casino in Toronto as do many citizens but many of councillors currently do not. The province has stated that they would not force a casino on any city that doesn't want it but councillors have to look at the potential revenue from all the casino proposals and truly decide what is best for the city. And they need to do so without the silly misconceptions that it would lead to red light districts or an increase in gang activity. If the councillors did their homework and looked at the facts they would conclude that this is an opportunity that Toronto just can't pass up. And of all the casino proposals, MGM's vision is by far and away the best for all Toronto residents."
adma
Superstar
I think what's more telling is that Ford "likes" this, yet he's been an absolute non-presence re anything to do w/Gehry/Mirvish: no sound bites, nothing, might as well not exist...
SP!RE
°°°°°°
Casinos are almost universally trashy. So, it would follow that Rob Ford likes it and will comment on it. He also likes to talk about football and the media's lies, while never invoking any discussions on the importance of public services, sustainability, and other REAL issues.
*goes and hides in a hole at the state of Toronto's city hall*
*goes and hides in a hole at the state of Toronto's city hall*
innsertnamehere
Superstar
because all ford cares about is $ and subways. this proposal could provide over $100,000,000 a year for the city, possibly allowing ford to finally cut the land transfer tax. truly sad how our mayor seems to barely know the definition of "urban planning", yet alone want to try to make the city a more enjoyable, urban, sustainable place.
adma
Superstar
Yet he *could have* offered something on Gehry/Mirvish--after all, from trashy discount stores to megamusicals, Ed-into-David Mirvish knew/knows how joyfully unabashed populism makes for intelligent business. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if Ford was purposely blocked out of the Gehry/Mirvish hoopla, in order to project a "presentable" front.)