Toronto Traffic?

[Admiral Beez]

Secondly, you could always take a bus.

I don't think that's an option. I wouldn't get to from Cabbagetown to my work at Markham Rd and 14 Ave any faster since the bus is stuck in the same traffic, and my car is paid for so all I'm using is gas, insurance, registration and maintenance, which I doubt would be much more than the bus fare.

Now, if there was a train, that I would take.

 

[kettal]

I don't think that's an option. I wouldn't get to from Cabbagetown to my work at Markham Rd and 14 Ave any faster since the bus is stuck in the same traffic, and my car is paid for so all I'm using is gas, insurance, registration and maintenance, which I doubt would be much more than the bus fare.

Now, if there was a train, that I would take.

Ironically, the scheduled GO train takes longer than the morning GO bus to make the same journey. Although, this will change with track upgrades which will end trains literally cawling into and out of Union.

The fact that you don't face much traffic on your way to work is a testament to how few people make such a commute. As a result, driving is so pleasant that transit will have a hard time competing. Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that. You're not really contributing to gridlock or congestion by your counter-peak drive, are you?

And if you lose your car or can't drive, there's always the bus + bike combo.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'd have to agree. I don't think we are overrun with highways, particularly when you look at the main Toronto region only (401, Gardiner, DVP/404, 400, 409 barely counts, and 427 which is really right on the periphery of the city boundaries.) I don't think that's over done for a city of Toronto's size. What's needed is better management of the interchanges. The 427/401/409 interchange is a mess, this is partially due to the fact that the 427 basically becomes a glorified on ramp south of the airport until you get past the 401/Eglinton. The 400/401 interchange needs split ramps like those at the 404/401 interchange, where you can take one ramp onto the express lanes or another onto the collectors.

 

[lead82]

Hah, the 401/404 ramp is a bloody mess and one of the worstly congested areas in the city. 24/7 there is traffic on 404 south towards 401. No need to copy that over to the 400.

To really solve the highway issue we need to toll them so that the highways are premium express roads, similar to how TTC charges extra for the express buses, we as a region should charge people to use highways as it is an express route across the region.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Hah, the 401/404 ramp is a bloody mess and one of the worstly congested areas in the city. 24/7 there is traffic on 404 south towards 401. No need to copy that over to the 400.

The entire area around the 401 and 404 is a complete mess, I agree. Definitely ranks up there in the worst congested in the city.

To really solve the highway issue we need to toll them so that the highways are premium express roads, similar to how TTC charges extra for the express buses, we as a region should charge people to use highways as it is an express route across the region.

I don't think we should just do highway tolls. We should look at a regionwide congestion tax that will charge people based on what kind of car they drive (size,) when they drive (rush hour and how long,) and what routes they take (taking a more used or congested route like a highway or main arterial,) would all play into things. Theoretically, someone could be charged for driving to the corner store to get milk (even though that might be something like one cent.)
Think about how much money that'd bring into Metrolinx's coffers, as well as giving people a very good reason to simply take transit, and not just find a different route to get to work, crowing up streets like Don Mills.

 

[TrickyRicky]

There is no doubt that traffic is way heavier now than even 10 years ago. I keep raising the point but I'll say it again, people act in what they percieve to be their best interests. I think we underestimate how much people have adapted to accommodate the fact that our infrastructure is effectively built out.

It's the genius of the system but eventually there are no more tricks in the bag of tricks. I think we still have maybe another decade before traffic really becomes overwhelming. There is still a lot of room for time shifts (shifting your work or personal activities to off peak).

You really notice the increased traffic however on weekends now. I try to make a point now of NOT running errands and shopping on the weekends. The other interesting thing is the school 3-4 pm rush hour. This didn't exist when I was a kid. Now it seems every kid in the city is picked-up and dropped-off from school, creating effectively a double-wammy rush hour.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The 400/401 interchange needs split ramps like those at the 404/401

Is the 400 even in Toronto?

 

[Cooool]

Right before Jane Street the 401 has a merge ramp that leads the very start of the 400.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Is the 400 even in Toronto?

Do you live in Toronto?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

How do you explain what has happened in NYCC then? The area has long been served buy a subway. Before amalgamation it was primarily a commercial area. Now it is largely a residential one. Many properties were previously approved for commercial use had their zoning changed to residential. Now the area is one of the most heavily congested the city.

Obviously, the existence of transit before development does not mean there will be no congestion.

It's simply ridiculous to say there was no congestion in the area before the post-amalgamation condos. NYCC saw tremendous residential growth in the same period that all the office towers were built (the offices were almost all built in a single clump of less than a decade). York Region has grown immensely since the early 90s, as has much of northern Toronto and practically every area along Steeles, including York U, the employment areas near the 404, and the retail farther east. Willowdale's houses were occupied by a huge number of widows even into the 90s...now these houses are occupied by working-age families. Much of the traffic along Yonge is caused by a few pinch points, like the buses at Finch station, or diversions due to the incomplete service roads, which also funnel traffic away from side streets, or the lack of continuous roadways aside from arterials (including few ways to cross the 401).

Also consider what would have happened to traffic if current NYCC apartment/condo residents were forced to live elsewhere (like further up Yonge) because Yonge Street was lined with offices instead...that'd be many thousands of transit trips lost, and it's not like more office towers wouldn't generate more traffic.

 

[makattack]

You really notice the increased traffic however on weekends now. I try to make a point now of NOT running errands and shopping on the weekends. .

I agree, I live in York Region, GO Train in to downtown.
On the weekends, I do everything I can to avoid 416 due to the horrible weekend traffic. Plus, in York Region, we have all the shops, restaurants, and entertainment that I rarely have to go into the city on weekends.

 

[lead82]

You guys are right. Weekend traffic has gotten terribly bad recently. It didn't use to be this way. I was just out in High Park over the weekend, and the drive from High Park to NYCC was quite busy on the 401, it looked almost like rush hour.

It's a result of people delaying all their errands to the weekend. We've become a society of living for the weekend, as our weekdays are busy with work, and commuting to/from work. The current madness is because the roads are jammed, so light synchronization fails, highway onramp merging, existing clogs up the roads and highways. Any crash/construction creates huge delays.

It's a symptom that our infrastructure is inadequate for a city of our size. Population has increased by leaps and bounds in the GTA, yet road/transit capacity has been fairly stagnant (except for 407, which accelerated the growth of 905).

We need solutions, but our politicians don't have the guts to take any serious action. Dalton is the only guy so far that has actually committed funds to transit in a serious way. Federal leadership is lacking on this issue for all of Canada's city regions.

At the end of the day, we will pay for it in higher taxes, or higher user fees. Infrastructure is not free, but without it our quality of life suffers and so does our economic output.

 

[Glen]

Obviously, the existence of transit before development does not mean there will be no congestion.

It's simply ridiculous to say there was no congestion in the area before the post-amalgamation condos. NYCC saw tremendous residential growth in the same period that all the office towers were built (the offices were almost all built in a single clump of less than a decade). York Region has grown immensely since the early 90s, as has much of northern Toronto and practically every area along Steeles, including York U, the employment areas near the 404, and the retail farther east. Willowdale's houses were occupied by a huge number of widows even into the 90s...now these houses are occupied by working-age families. Much of the traffic along Yonge is caused by a few pinch points, like the buses at Finch station, or diversions due to the incomplete service roads, which also funnel traffic away from side streets, or the lack of continuous roadways aside from arterials (including few ways to cross the 401).

Also consider what would have happened to traffic if current NYCC apartment/condo residents were forced to live elsewhere (like further up Yonge) because Yonge Street was lined with offices instead...that'd be many thousands of transit trips lost, and it's not like more office towers wouldn't generate more traffic.

That is all beside the point I was addressing. Which was blaming the decentralization of employment areas on the lack of public transit. I pointed out that NYCC went from having the majority of new development being commercial to the opposite. Despite the pre existence of the subway. In fact while all these employment areas were developed outside of Toronto, none were developed anywhere along the existing subway lines in the city.

 

[Jonny5]

That is all beside the point I was addressing. Which was blaming the decentralization of employment areas on the lack of public transit. I pointed out that NYCC went from having the majority of new development being commercial to the opposite. Despite the pre existence of the subway. In fact while all these employment areas were developed outside of Toronto, none were developed anywhere along the existing subway lines in the city.

It was small-minded politicians and shady backroom deals that led us to start run-away development out of the 416. It's a shame that it's taken 50 years for us to just start planning for the redevelopment of Bloor and Danforth, especially as the prime time for accomplishing this was 30 years ago. Now it will be war with NIMBY's to redevelop every inch as it is precedent in the minds of residents that high order transit does not mean high density should be encouraged.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That is all beside the point I was addressing. Which was blaming the decentralization of employment areas on the lack of public transit. I pointed out that NYCC went from having the majority of new development being commercial to the opposite. Despite the pre existence of the subway. In fact while all these employment areas were developed outside of Toronto, none were developed anywhere along the existing subway lines in the city.

That's not what you were addressing. You're blaming congestion in North York on a condo boom in an area that was slated to receive a few more office towers. The flaws in this reasoning include assuming there was no congestion before amalgamation, neglecting the tremendous growth of areas beyond North York, and the fact that pre-existing transit will not prevent congestion, just help relieve it.

Why would you blame decentralization of employment on the lack of public transit? That makes no sense. Remember, this thread is about traffic. Suburban congestion was made far worse by not building transit with or before decentralized employment growth (which by itself is not necessarily a bad thing). It's not like a distribution centre or pharmaceutical manufacturer is going to open an 8-acre facility at Yonge & Eglinton. Yes, it would have been nice if more employment was funnelled to subway stations, but that speaks less to the ability or willingness of the city of Toronto to do so and more to our insufficient public transit network. Realistically, a few blocks of Yonge can't accommodate as many jobs as somewhere like the 404/407 interchange. Employment areas further out saw virtually no improved transit other than a few more buses. The 404 corridor employment zones, for instance, should be quite easy to serve with quality transit from Leaside right up to Beaver Creek...not only was nothing built, the double fare punishes many of those willing to cross Steeles (Viva Green isn't really a factor). Even the Sheppard line was not built long enough to affect employment zones in addition to residential areas.

I don't think you realize how much residential development in NYCC pre-dates or was built at the same time as the late-80s/early-90s office boom. You're also underestimating how much traffic would be generated by additional office towers, especially if they have large retail components, even though they'd be right at subway stations. One problem is that the suburban centres like NYCC were only connected by transit to downtown, and not to each other, the rest of suburban 416, or the 905.

The city was clearly successful at funnelling employment and development to NYCC, no matter what you say, and the proof can be seen in places like North York Centre station's ridership and at the intersection of Yonge & Sheppard. Obviously, though, the cumulative growth of traffic from the rest of the northern 416 and all of York Region, no to mention demographic shifts in the surrounding bungalows/McMansions, will easily overwhelm whatever transit/traffic benefits are gained along the 3km stretch of Yonge that forms downtown North York.