cd concept
Senior Member
Maybe it's in a bad location. Might as well bring it to the Toronto Islands. Looks like everything else is coming to the downtown area haha!
/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/city_hall/2019/06/02/the-toronto-zoo-is-trying-to-reinvent-itself-its-very-survival-may-be-at-stake/_1_zoo_ceo.jpg)
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Toronto Toronto Zoo Community Conservation Campus | 13.5m | 2s | Toronto Zoo | Zeidler
- Thread starter jje1000
- Start date
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don’t think there are any suitable sites downtown - if anything we should merge Toronto Wildlife Centre with it. Accessibility is always an issue though.
AoD
innsertnamehere
Superstar
A seasonal express shuttle from the closest subway stop probably isn’t the worst idea during peak months.. I’m sort of surprised they don’t have that to be honest with you.
The nature of a zoo being a seasonal attraction with huge land requirements and especially the zoo’s location on the edge of the urban area means that rapid transit to its doorstep likely doesn’t make much sense.
If you ask me it should be a provincial facility anyway. The zoo services the entire province.. people come from all over to go to it. No reason Toronto taxpayers should be the only ones paying for it.
The nature of a zoo being a seasonal attraction with huge land requirements and especially the zoo’s location on the edge of the urban area means that rapid transit to its doorstep likely doesn’t make much sense.
If you ask me it should be a provincial facility anyway. The zoo services the entire province.. people come from all over to go to it. No reason Toronto taxpayers should be the only ones paying for it.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
It doesn't really make sense for it to be a provincial facility - it is more a regional than a provincial attraction.
AoD
Northern Light
Superstar
The zoo, in its current form is an outmoded idea.
Its a waning tourist attraction, whose overall footprint is an environmental negative given its adjacency to Rouge Park and whose operations lose money, while offending many animal welfare folks based on the fact exhibits are often quite small and also fail to substantially mimic natural habitat and behavior for the various species.
The question then, in my mind is what alternatives are there, besides closure, and do they merit the level of investment they would require?
For me, the justification for the existence of zoo is primarily around research and protection/breeding of endangered species, w/any tourism value being secondary.
Just for the sake of argument, to address the tourism side as primary motivator, I think you would need to address site access by transit, which at the low end, would entail an on-site bus station featuring a climate-controlled waiting area, w/vending machines/concessions, transit info screen, comfy seating, and washrooms. As well as a bus platform than can handle artic buses, and has a snow melt system and a canopy to protect against the weather. The bus would need to be frequent (20m wait at worst, more frequent in-season; and it would need reserved lanes on Meadowvale, and Sheppard/Progress or McCowan in order to get it to the RT station or other rapid transit at STC.
I would estimate the forward capital cost in the range 30M assuming no road widenings, and then additional subsidy for the route of about 2M per year.
Then you have to build something people want to go to, in much larger numbers than today.
I think that requires more of unique experience w/wildlife, while addressing animal welfare concerns and dealing w/many people feel is an excessive walk around the site in either hot or cold weather.
This requires the return of the monorail or something similar; it requires extensive redevelopment of exhibits, and because most exhibits would be significantly larger, it requires new ways to for the public to view them.
I think that would mean pedestrian bridges over exhibits, lookouts w/view finders and an interactive display featuring cameras and heat-sensing tech to tell people where to look for the animals.
This cost could easily range into the hundreds of millions.
********
All of which is to say, I think the current form of the zoo should probably be left in history.
I would alter its focus as follows:
1) First and primary focus on species native to Ontario (easier and cheaper to provide habitat, which will also be consistent w/Rouge Park and benefit the environment, and minimal pavilions required)
2)In respect of the above, endangered species take priority, but in general an effort should be made to showcase every species native to Ontario.
3)Exhibits for said species should reflect large, high-quality, natural habitats.
4)The Zoo's involvement in non-native species should be limited to those which would be endangered but for the Zoo's involvement; and where the zoo has expertise and can deliver a breeding program for repopulating wild populations.
5)Choose carefully whether to make public viewing/access a priority. If the answer is no, the Zoo's footprint can shrink by more than 1/2 and it would be much lower cost to operate. Its academic/research side could be enmeshed with a University and funded provincially/federally as an academic/research enterprise.
If the desire is to retain public access, then I would still tighten the footprint where the public has access and overall site area, including replacing current parking with a garage in order to occupy far less space.
Exhibits should still be animal-centric with viewing augmented by cameras/heat-sensors, lookouts and bridges.
The landscape should be entirely native plants (excepting exhibits of non-native animals) , minimizing any manicured features so as to benefit nature and reduce grounds maintenance costs
6) Pricing adjustments are in order. At $29 a pop for adults in summer ($23 in winter), which includes teens, and children at $19($14 in winter) their price is not competitive for the experience.
I would go $25 for adults, in season and kids under 18 free.
Winter, $15 for adults, in season, and kids under 18 free.
7) Finally, the Zoo needs new sources of revenue.
Based on the success of Evergreen's store/nursery at the Brickworks; I would suggest a nursery that sells native plants, where the Zoo grows these for its own needs but sells extra at retail prices. I would also suggest sale of products targeting enhanced animal habitat be that for your dog at home or for people w/larger properties natural area enhancement items and services. (yard design, bat boxes, bird boxes, rain gardens etc.)
I think they could easily net 1.5M per year. It would also serve as a draw in the shoulder season.
I would also put an electronic donation screen at each exhibit allowing people to specifically support a particular exhibit/research project and donate using 'flash'. Just tap your card and donate $10-$100 hassle free.
That's just my 2 cents, LOL
Its a waning tourist attraction, whose overall footprint is an environmental negative given its adjacency to Rouge Park and whose operations lose money, while offending many animal welfare folks based on the fact exhibits are often quite small and also fail to substantially mimic natural habitat and behavior for the various species.
The question then, in my mind is what alternatives are there, besides closure, and do they merit the level of investment they would require?
For me, the justification for the existence of zoo is primarily around research and protection/breeding of endangered species, w/any tourism value being secondary.
Just for the sake of argument, to address the tourism side as primary motivator, I think you would need to address site access by transit, which at the low end, would entail an on-site bus station featuring a climate-controlled waiting area, w/vending machines/concessions, transit info screen, comfy seating, and washrooms. As well as a bus platform than can handle artic buses, and has a snow melt system and a canopy to protect against the weather. The bus would need to be frequent (20m wait at worst, more frequent in-season; and it would need reserved lanes on Meadowvale, and Sheppard/Progress or McCowan in order to get it to the RT station or other rapid transit at STC.
I would estimate the forward capital cost in the range 30M assuming no road widenings, and then additional subsidy for the route of about 2M per year.
Then you have to build something people want to go to, in much larger numbers than today.
I think that requires more of unique experience w/wildlife, while addressing animal welfare concerns and dealing w/many people feel is an excessive walk around the site in either hot or cold weather.
This requires the return of the monorail or something similar; it requires extensive redevelopment of exhibits, and because most exhibits would be significantly larger, it requires new ways to for the public to view them.
I think that would mean pedestrian bridges over exhibits, lookouts w/view finders and an interactive display featuring cameras and heat-sensing tech to tell people where to look for the animals.
This cost could easily range into the hundreds of millions.
********
All of which is to say, I think the current form of the zoo should probably be left in history.
I would alter its focus as follows:
1) First and primary focus on species native to Ontario (easier and cheaper to provide habitat, which will also be consistent w/Rouge Park and benefit the environment, and minimal pavilions required)
2)In respect of the above, endangered species take priority, but in general an effort should be made to showcase every species native to Ontario.
3)Exhibits for said species should reflect large, high-quality, natural habitats.
4)The Zoo's involvement in non-native species should be limited to those which would be endangered but for the Zoo's involvement; and where the zoo has expertise and can deliver a breeding program for repopulating wild populations.
5)Choose carefully whether to make public viewing/access a priority. If the answer is no, the Zoo's footprint can shrink by more than 1/2 and it would be much lower cost to operate. Its academic/research side could be enmeshed with a University and funded provincially/federally as an academic/research enterprise.
If the desire is to retain public access, then I would still tighten the footprint where the public has access and overall site area, including replacing current parking with a garage in order to occupy far less space.
Exhibits should still be animal-centric with viewing augmented by cameras/heat-sensors, lookouts and bridges.
The landscape should be entirely native plants (excepting exhibits of non-native animals) , minimizing any manicured features so as to benefit nature and reduce grounds maintenance costs
6) Pricing adjustments are in order. At $29 a pop for adults in summer ($23 in winter), which includes teens, and children at $19($14 in winter) their price is not competitive for the experience.
I would go $25 for adults, in season and kids under 18 free.
Winter, $15 for adults, in season, and kids under 18 free.
7) Finally, the Zoo needs new sources of revenue.
Based on the success of Evergreen's store/nursery at the Brickworks; I would suggest a nursery that sells native plants, where the Zoo grows these for its own needs but sells extra at retail prices. I would also suggest sale of products targeting enhanced animal habitat be that for your dog at home or for people w/larger properties natural area enhancement items and services. (yard design, bat boxes, bird boxes, rain gardens etc.)
I think they could easily net 1.5M per year. It would also serve as a draw in the shoulder season.
I would also put an electronic donation screen at each exhibit allowing people to specifically support a particular exhibit/research project and donate using 'flash'. Just tap your card and donate $10-$100 hassle free.
That's just my 2 cents, LOL
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Well given that there is no regional government level in the GTA, it should fall to the next best thing, the Province.
While it's not the only zoo in the province, it is by far the largest I would be surprised if the majority of the province hadn't visited at some point. I grew up in the outer 905 and visited the zoo regularly as a child.. It's a common activity for probably 8-10 million people in the province, it really shouldn't be subsidized by the city, especially now that it's approaching the need for some major capital investment.
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Richard White
Senior Member
They tried this.
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/bus/routes/194-zoo-rocket.shtml
It failed miserably due to low ridership. It ran from STC to the Zoo.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
The Zoo should run it as its own private shuttle without using the unnecessary TTC infrastructure. And don't run it from STC, nobody wants to have to take the SRT.. Go from Don Mills and maybe make a stop at STC, and run it as a private shuttle.
Lots of places in the city run private shuttles.. A ton of suburban malls run them downtown, office buildings, other facilities, hotels, etc. It's not that expensive.
Richard White
Senior Member
Yes but unlike those offices, hotels and other facilities you mention the Toronto Zoo is partially funded and run by the City of Toronto. I highly doubt they will allow anyone but their own transit service to run a shuttle service.
Towered
Superstar
So...how's that maglev coming along?
Johnny Au
Senior Member
The article does not mention the maglev, which would be a huge draw, even for those not interested in seeing wildlife at risk in person.Wonder what the long-term plan for the Toronto Zoo is- it definitely needs investment to make it less worn-out, and should definitely emphasize the conservationist and educational aspects of a zoo.
Hopefully the situation may get better once the EELRT brings rapid transit slightly closer to the zoo in the future, as its location is also one of its stumbling blocks.
Strongly disagree with shutting it down, as zoos are excellent places for people to connect with global nature in an immediate nature- otherwise, ecological conservation becomes a few degrees more detached, making it more difficult for people to emphasize (much like how climate change can be difficult for people to take seriously as it's seen in a rather piecemeal manner, that makes it harder for people to connect the dots).
The Toronto Zoo is trying to reinvent itself. Its very survival may be at stake
By Francine Kopun, City Hall Bureau
Sun., June 2, 2019
The Toronto Zoo is trying to reinvent itself. Its very survival may be at stake
The Toronto Zoo's new CEO was hired to transform it from its tired state into something vital. But in an era of animal rights and fiscal restraint at city hall, the zoo's future is far from secure.www.thestar.com
rbt
Senior Member
In November 2018 (when they got tentative approval from the Zoo board) Magnovate was expecting to take a year to line up construction financing, design, and city/conservation authority approvals.
Even the most optimistic timeline wouldn't start construction until mid-2020. I'm not expecting much in the way of announcements until they've got everything lined up.
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cd concept
Senior Member
I guess there's no suitable land in the downtown core. But the outer part of the Portland's and Tommy Thompson Park area is it great location in my opinion. They could build man-made Mountain and Hills out of steel that can house certain species on the inside of the mountain as well as the outside. Transit can also be extended to the Outer harbour Marina where a good possible site would be. The Science Center's is coming downtown might as well make this happen too ! Most people don't like to travel to far to see certain attractions. Not because it needs to be upgraded it's too far. location location location !
lenaitch
Senior Member
The northeast portion of the city is too far? People travel 2 hours plus to Muskoka, Haliburton and Georgian Bay/Lake Huron on a regular basis and ~70K just schlepped north of Barrie for a concert. I'm thinking of other threads where people who move north Bloor or east of the Don are considered by their friends to be exiled. We had season passes when we lived in the 905 and could justify a short visit if The Kid was having an off day. I love the place and miss the monorail.
I can't image when it would cost to assemble and 'naturalize a similar plot in downtown.
I can't image when it would cost to assemble and 'naturalize a similar plot in downtown.
jje1000
Senior Member
Personally I think nearly all zoos in the West will be legacy zoos at this point as there's simply not that much of a market/stomach for new zoos anymore.
I would say that it'll be probably better working with existing infrastructures to make sure we make the most of what the existing zoo has to offer.
I actually really like the idea to merge the Toronto Wildlife Centre with the zoo- I wonder if there's an opportunity to embed it in the Canadian animals exhibits, or where the old Canadian Domain was (assuming it gets abandoned in the future)? It was mentioned in the Star article that the Ecomuseum Zoo did something like that:
I actually think clustering wildlife services and organizations in Toronto at the Zoo would work quite well, the same way hospitals often cluster together. Infrastructure gets shared, and I think it'll be stronger collectively. That being said, location will always be an issue for these services, but there's no reason to have smaller field offices throughout Toronto, and long-term recovery enclosures at the Toronto zoo.
I would say that it'll be probably better working with existing infrastructures to make sure we make the most of what the existing zoo has to offer.
I actually really like the idea to merge the Toronto Wildlife Centre with the zoo- I wonder if there's an opportunity to embed it in the Canadian animals exhibits, or where the old Canadian Domain was (assuming it gets abandoned in the future)? It was mentioned in the Star article that the Ecomuseum Zoo did something like that:
I actually think clustering wildlife services and organizations in Toronto at the Zoo would work quite well, the same way hospitals often cluster together. Infrastructure gets shared, and I think it'll be stronger collectively. That being said, location will always be an issue for these services, but there's no reason to have smaller field offices throughout Toronto, and long-term recovery enclosures at the Toronto zoo.
