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GeekyBoyTO, I was in the walkways and podium group. It's good there was another forum member there.
I should add that there was a general consensus at the forum that the walkway, as it is, does indeed block the view to the square from Queen Street and Bay Streets. At least, it significantly does so. The majority of people I've spoken to about this agree. Whether one feels that our most famous and auspicious public space should be hidden or opened up doesn't address the condition and appearance of the walkways themselves. My opinion is that they cannot remain as they are. They are drab and barley functional. It's my view, that NPS should be open and obvious since it is our grandest civic square and perhaps most famous landmark (maybe along with the CN Tower). How the square is opened up and the perimeter streets improved, whether the walkways are raised, moved or removed, is the function of the design competition. Bring on the world.
 
jozl:

Funny that in our group, the walkway is more or less taken as a granted. No one actually suggested removing it at all. The issues that did come up is the generally degraded streetscape in the vicinity of the square, as well as difficult in reading the square and correlate it to access from the outside.

Regarding the visibility issue - it isn't so much so that the walkway that causes the problem but the mess within and without the square that does.

To me, there are 4 "zones" to the Square with different degree of interventions being appropriate - 1. the hard paved surface, more or less a "sacred space" (in Marco Polo's language) that should be restored to diginity and expanded to include area taken up the Peace Garden and the landscaping north of the bunker; 2. The reflecting pool/arches/bunker - which should also be restored, with the exception of the bunker, which should be made transparent at eye level (uses permitting) such that visiblity is maximized while keeping the concrete cornice to preserve the unity with the rest of the square; 3. the outer square, between the boundaries of the site, the streetscape and the walkway - where more radical interventions, in keeping with the general principles of the City Hall, can be undertaken to improve visibility and pedestrian flows; 4. the podium and walkways - where improvements should be based on usage, while minimizing physical intrusions to the existing structure where possible.

GB
 
Adma said:
Compare blixa's post above to babel's, and guess which one's more compelling.
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I wouldn't want anyone to assume that Blixa has as much time on his hands as some other more prolific members of this board talented at compelling people such as yourself.
 
Geeky: A sensible approach. Once the clutter ( Peace Garden etc. ) has been removed from the "sacred space" - giving a clear view of the council chamber from within the Square once again; and once someone takes a chainsaw to the messy outer square where the wild things grow; and once the upper level public spaces are re-opened - maybe it'll be a coherent public space once more!

But even as this great public initiative gets under way some bright sparks, living in a design-free zone, are still messin' with the outer Square: Witness that Churchill parky thing that's sprung up around the statue, with metal seats ( who designed them? Why don't they match any of the other public furniture in the Square? ) set in concrete, and that ugly off-kilter plaque. Presumably this is another act of rogue philanthropy - like countless gifts of "public art" scattered in public spaces across the city - that our elected representatives had no option but to accept.
 
GeekyBoyTO,

Did the Pathways and Connections group discuss access to Albert Street? That is the east–west street just north of old city hall that connects the the Eaton Centre to NPS. Take a look at NPS from the Eaton Centre entrance at Albert Street. You will see that the street runs west right into a concrete barrier. Revell obviously couldn't have foreseen the construction of the Eaton Centre.
The walkway and podium ramps converge there, making it a good place to get decapitated. To make matters worse there is a labyrinth of flag poles and barriers that further impede traffic and sight-lines. If this area were opened up there would be access to NPS and Osggode Hall as well as a wonderful "conclusion" to Albert Street. The Bay Street perimeter needs to be addressed. Etc. Etc.
 
I found another destroyed sightline the other night, walking east across the lawn in front of Osgoode. Looking ahead, I saw the walkway, instead of the square and Old City Hall. I was momentarily PO'd because from where I was standing it was obvious that a superb view had been ruined. I guess it's a petty gripe, but when you consider that views are blocked from nearly 360 deg. around city hall, it becomes significant.

There is something to be said for spaces that reveal themselves unexpectedly. I recently found the little courtyard on the NE of Yonge&King; I passed by it a hundred times without ever going in, and when finally I stumbled upon it, I felt like I'd been transported to another city! Of course, the two vital characteristics this courtyard has over NPS are that it is unobtrusive on the outside, and attractive on the inside. If NPS had an attractive exterior and revealed itself to be interesting in some way on the inside -- grand, cozy, or just bold in some way -- I could be in favour of the walkways.
 
Re: the "decapitation point" beneath the ramp as you round the north east corner into the Square:

Do you walk comfortably under it at the highest point?

Do you bend a little and scoot under it to shave a few paces off your walk?

Either way it engages your perception, forces you to make calculations, and is one of the most memorable architectural dead spaces in the city. Let's celebrate its irritating uniqueness!

There is no ladylike way to eat a hotdog. And, from a design point of view, there is no more honest way of bringing a ramp in for a soft landing on a plane - without wedging a broom closet underneath it to use up that wonderful "dead space" - than what we have now.

Albert Street was being used when Revell was alive, and before the Eaton Centre was built, so we must assume that he took the view of City Hall from that side into consideration.
 
jozl:

Yes we did discuss access to Albert Street - and none of us minded it that much, to be perfectly honest. Some members suggested getting rid of the flagpoles but in the grand scheme of things, this is not the most critical issue.

One problem with our group is that in the absence of any informatinon regarding how disposable those sets of parking ramps are, it is extremely difficult to call for any plans to rationalize them. Having looked at the site plan, however, one can potentially widen the sidewalk on Bay St. at both the northern and southern ends and shorten the driveway to the ramps - allowing for more streetscaping.

Perhaps what's needed at the Albert Street entrance to NPS is not tearing down any of the walkways or ramp to the podium, but a proper view terminius, like a large piece of art.

GB
 
I should add that there was a general consensus at the forum that the walkway, as it is, does indeed block the view to the square from Queen Street and Bay Streets.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the complaint of the obstructed views has more to do with the walkways general shabby appearance rather than actually having a view blocked. If the walkways were attractive, I'm sure no one would care... just like no one cares that the beautiful wrought iron fencing around Osgoode Hall blocks its view.
 
Geeky: Perhaps the cluster flagpoles, with colourful flags flapping on them, was originally intended as a view terminus?
 
babel:

I thought about that possiblity - it could work that way, but somewhat weak considering how muscular the architecture in the area is. The closeness of the flagpoles also affects pedestrian circulation a bit...

Makes me think of a hypostyle court...

GB
 
But even as this great public initiative gets under way some bright sparks, living in a design-free zone, are still messin' with the outer Square: Witness that Churchill parky thing that's sprung up around the statue, with metal seats ( who designed them? Why don't they match any of the other public furniture in the Square? ) set in concrete, and that ugly off-kilter plaque. Presumably this is another act of rogue philanthropy - like countless gifts of "public art" scattered in public spaces across the city - that our elected representatives had no option but to accept.
Click to expand...

Well, the statue itself (as a Jackman/Nemon collaboration, Gumby's direct precursor) embodies rogue philanthropy, 70s-style, so cynically speaking, it may deserve no better. (Other than to be transported to some other location, of course.)

OTOH even if the execution of the current Churchill "enhancement" is mediocre, that quartet of plaques up front constitutes a great idea--an lemonade-out-of-a-lemon "people's history" opportunity to "reflect on Winston". (And it may even backhandedly inform the plaques-in-the-walkway notion?)
 
Witness that Churchill parky thing that's sprung up around the statue, with metal seats ( who designed them? Why don't they match any of the other public furniture in the Square? ) set in concrete, and that ugly off-kilter plaque.

From what I can tell, the recent re-arrangements and fixups on Queen have been done to keep news trucks from driving on the grass.
 
maxy505:

When you walk east across the lawn in front of Osgoode Hall your view of the City Hall building is blocked by the dense canopy of foliage from the mature trees, not by the walkways.

You can see people in the Square if you look through the Osgoode railings - and the walkways are low on the horizon ahead of you and in no way block the view of the council chamber.

As you move east, and leave Osgoode behind you, a clear view of the council chamber is still blocked - by the trees in the Square! Paradoxically, if the Revell walkways had been built as tall as he wanted, and if there were no trees in the Square, that view might possibly have been interrupted by the walkways.

A few random observations:

* There are 3 different designs of garbage cans in the Square.

* There are 2 different designs of seating around the pool. Some seats have backs, some are benches.

* Re: pristine sight lines: Even if the Peace Garden was removed, the Freedom Arches would still briefly interrupt the clear view of City Hall as you walk across the south side of the Square.

* Is there an elegant alternative to the ugly frost-fence screens that prevent people from climbing up the arches?

* The walkways shelter people from the sun and from the rain. If they were higher they'd be less effective in this regard.
 
babel:

I was thinking more of Old City Hall. I could see the top third of it over the walkway, and it just struck me that due to the walkway there are to west views of Old City Hall. In my experience, the best visual attraction of a plaza is usually the architecture bordering it. Barring the south side NPS actually has decent surroundings, and it's a shame that they're blocked.

The mature trees are tall enough that they only block views upwards (such as towards new city hall, as you mentioned).

By the way, I was standing on the path just by the south-east corner of Osgoode.
 
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