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AlvinofDiaspar said:
My take is slightly different - his views are repugnant, and the free speech argument is a little specious considering what he is proposing and his fiery rhetoric is hardly harmless. That said, I am not sure if a) what Matlow proposes does anything; b) whether the state has the authority to do what he proposed and c) whether the state have any business in doing what he proposed, even if it does have that power.

Quite frankly, it would speak far more if the government bar him from entering the country. That would be a meaningful statement, not scratching his name off a third-bit tower that couldn't get it right.

AoD
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I don't think Matlow, or anything of whom I am aware, has advocated that our government do anything.
 
Skeezix said:
This is what troubles me. Free speech is a two-way street. Yes, Trump is allowed to utter nonsense. But conversely, someone like Matlow is allowed to say that he thinks the owners of the building should remove the Trump name from the building because of its associations with someone advocating some pretty nasty stuff. Let's be absolutely clear - Matlow is not advocating that the government require that the building be renamed. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have not heard him make any such suggestion. If he did, then maybe the "PC Police" label would make sense. But he hasn't.

So, how it is it when Trump expresses an opinion it's a "free country with free speech", but when Matlow expresses an opinion it's "the PC police"?
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Just like to clarify since I 'liked' UF's post. I agree with you (skeezix) on Matlow can say whatever he wants, free speech etc., but to put a motion to City Council is pointless and I view it as waste of council's time. Any person with reasonable values knows that what Trump is spewing is repugnant. Sending a motion to council to affirm this won't change anyone's minds if they actually agree with Trump. They might as well pass a motion stating water is wet.
 
Skeezix said:
how it is it when Trump expresses an opinion it's a "free country with free speech", but when Matlow expresses an opinion it's "the PC police"?
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Well, to be accurate... I said when Trump expresses his opinion it's a "racist" "tacky nouveau riche orang-utan" spouting "stupid ideas" and "dumb comments."

But you're right... both Trump and Matlow live in free countries with free speech. It goes without saying that Donald Trump is (still) a piece of sh*t. He is undoubtedly loving all the attention we and everyone else are giving him.
 
junior43 said:
Just like to clarify since I 'liked' UF's post. I agree with you (skeezix) on Matlow can say whatever he wants, free speech etc., but to put a motion to City Council is pointless and I view it as waste of council's time. Any person with reasonable values knows that what Trump is spewing is repugnant. Sending a motion to council to affirm this won't change anyone's minds if they actually agree with Trump. They might as well pass a motion stating water is wet.
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I know I said that I would stick to talking about the God-awful architecture, but I will nonetheless try and clarify facts.

Matlow has not said that is bringing a motion to Council. In fact, he said the opposite (he specifically noted that he would not be bringing this to Council). Please someone correct me if Matlow has since changed his mind. (Although I am not sure it matters)

So let's be clear. Matlow is not advocating that the Trump Tower be forced to change its name. Matlow is not proposing a new law which enables government at any level to remove names from buildings when someone expresses offensive views. Matlow is not even advocating a symbolic Council resolution. He simply stated his opinion that the folks who own the building should remove the Trump name. That's it. Once can agree or disagree with Matlow's opinion, but it is validly held, and it is not some fringe opinion.
 
UrbanFervour said:
Well, to be accurate... I said when Trump expresses his opinion it's a "racist" "tacky nouveau riche orang-utan" spouting "stupid ideas" and "dumb comments."

But you're right... both Trump and Matlow live in free countries with free speech. It goes without saying that Donald Trump is (still) a piece of sh*t. He is undoubtedly loving all the attention we and everyone else are giving him.
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Just to clarify, it was the stuff about the "PC Police" which I was questioning, not the other stuff.
 
Skeezix said:
I know I said that I would stick to talking about the God-awful architecture, but I will nonetheless try and clarify facts.

Matlow has not said that is bringing a motion to Council. In fact, he said the opposite (he specifically noted that he would not be bringing this to Council). Please someone correct me if Matlow has since changed his mind. (Although I am not sure it matters)

So let's be clear. Matlow is not advocating that the Trump Tower be forced to change its name. Matlow is not proposing a new law which enables government at any level to remove names from buildings when someone expresses offensive views. Matlow is not even advocating a symbolic Council resolution. He simply stated his opinion that the folks who own the building should remove the Trump name. That's it. Once can agree or disagree with Matlow's opinion, but it is validly held, and it is not some fringe opinion.
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I believe I heard on the radio this morning he was putting a motion to council, but it may have been misreported, or I misheard (more likely).
 
Skeezix said:
Just to clarify, it was the stuff about the "PC Police" which I was questioning, not the other stuff.
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If Matlow wants to publicly condemn Trump's opinions and whatnot, fine. But I don't like to see a Canadian politician going on a public offensive against Donald Trump's business "brand." ... What does that do? Change hearts and minds? Make Matlow look like a big brave hero? Show that racism isn't allowed in Toronto?

It's like the student union at U of O freaking out over Ann Coulter speaking on campus a few years ago. All it did/does is draw even more attention to the repugnant creep in question and give them more of the high-level attention they so desperately crave.
 
UrbanFervour said:
If Matlow wants to publicly condemn Trump's opinions and whatnot, fine. But I don't like to see a Canadian politician going on a public offensive against Donald Trump's business "brand." ... What does that do? Change hearts and minds? Make Matlow look like a big brave hero? Show that racism isn't allowed in Toronto?

It's like the student union at U of O freaking out over Ann Coulter speaking on campus a few years ago. All it did/does is draw even more attention to the repugnant creep in question and give them more of the high-level attention they so desperately crave.
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I don't understand your concept of free speech. It's okay if it's Trump, not good if it's Matlow? I don't understand what part of someone expressing an opinion is so troubling. Wouldn't changing hearts and minds, and taking a stand against racism in Toronto, be a good thing? Why can't a Canadian politician take issue with Trump's positions? How does free speech not apply to them?

The Ann Coulter situation was very different, IIRC, because they actually wanted to ban her from speaking on campus. They were actually trying to ban free speech. Again, Matlow was making no such suggestion. I don't recall him saying that Trump should be prevented from speaking his mind. And at this point in the news cycle, I don't think Matlow is adding in any meaningful way to Trump's press coverage (again, quite different from the Coulter situation).
 
Skeezix said:
I don't understand your concept of free speech. It's okay if it's Trump, not good if it's Matlow? I don't understand what part of someone expressing an opinion is so troubling. Wouldn't changing hearts and minds, and taking a stand against racism in Toronto, be a good thing? Why can't a Canadian politician take issue with Trump's positions? How does free speech not apply to them?
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1. I vote for moving this to a separate thread. We're going too far down the rabbit hole on this topic - or just drop it in general.
2. I admire your optimism, but the cynic in me feels Matlow's sternly worded letter to Trump Tower will do absolutely zero to change any hearts and/or minds. If you're a person that actually still thinks Trumps comment make sense, Matlow's letter will do nothing to change this.
 
Skeezix said:
NGBtect and ksun are free to keep talking about how funny and silly they think this is, but I will henceforth stick to discussing the God-awful architecture of this building.
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The architecture is god-awful --> removing the name TRUMP might help make the tower look better --> by the way, Trump is a bigot --> political discussion resumes --> and now we're back to where we started.
 
I'm not in favour of moving this to a new thread. This is part of the history of the building.

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Trump's current views are repugnant. I only inserted the word current as he previously identified himself as a democrat - so it is fair to assume this is as much populism (give your voters what they want to hear) and likely less his personal views (not that that matters). But in Matlow bringing this to council - which has no authority to do anything of the sort - it is also pure populism (though obviously directed at a different market). Trump is worse for sure - but previously I didnt really know much about Matlow - and now I do.
 
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