Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

[CDL.TO]

The US and the Allies weren't led by Toronto City Council....

Follow up question to one before....can these upgrades support LRT down the road? Would it be minimal cost and effort to switch, or is this work only to support streetcars?

Hey kEiThZ,

You've mentioned streetcars and LRT a few times now. Streetcars are a type of LRT. The 510 Spadina Streetcar is also known as the Spadina LRT.

I presume you're referring to the line being able to carry larger vehicles. Yes, that should be possible in the future with little or no changes to the line.

 

[drum118]

The US and the Allies weren't led by Toronto City Council....

Follow up question to one before....can these upgrades support LRT down the road? Would it be minimal cost and effort to switch, or is this work only to support streetcars?

Yes.

The platforms will support a 30m car.

The brackets for the overhead supports have been change to support pantograph.

Fleet ROW is the same way.

 

[kEiThZ]

I presume you're referring to the line being able to carry larger vehicles. Yes, that should be possible in the future with little or no changes to the line.

Yeah, that's what I meant.... Will the St. Clair ROW be able to accommodate TC vehicles? And if it can, I find it baffling that St. Clair was not upgraded to a TC line.

 

[Hipster Duck]

As I understand it, the only real difference between a Transit City line and the St. Clair right of way as-built, is the stop spacing. I might be wrong, but I always assumed that the station infrastructure for a TC line would be very low tech: a longer, wider shelter, unmanned and without any fare control, and where access to the street or the other platform is done at the surface on a crosswalk.

Really, I can't see it any other way, with the TTC's absolute insistence that Transit City right of ways must be placed in the middle of the road (including the idiotic Eglinton alignment through Etobicoke where the Richview corridor is a huge strip of grass).

 

[Whoaccio]

Is the TTC looking into how this became such a screw-up? Surely there has got to be something wrong with the processes the TTC used here to keep stumbling from cost overrun to delay to inability to sell it's idea to the public. I was originally quite supportive of the idea (I even lived on St. Clair at the time), but someone really dropped the ball.

Ohh, and wrt to the shelters. Has the TTC heard of "walls"? They are this really fancy technology from Europe that protect inhabitants from inclement weather. I know in TTC land, rain/snow/wind always fall directly vertical, meaning only a roof is necessary. Every time I had to wait for a streetcar though in inclement weather, those shelters did absolutely nothing. Sometimes I think they almost created a wind tunnel...

 

[drum118]

As I understand it, the only real difference between a Transit City line and the St. Clair right of way as-built, is the stop spacing. I might be wrong, but I always assumed that the station infrastructure for a TC line would be very low tech: a longer, wider shelter, unmanned and without any fare control, and where access to the street or the other platform is done at the surface on a crosswalk.

Really, I can't see it any other way, with the TTC's absolute insistence that Transit City right of ways must be placed in the middle of the road (including the idiotic Eglinton alignment through Etobicoke where the Richview corridor is a huge strip of grass).

TC and ST Clair will be the same, except TC will see wider platforms as well longer ones since they will hold more than one car. I don't expect to see centre poles for TC.

There are places been look at where TC will be on one side of the route in places like Cherry St.

The biggest issues facing TC is the short distance between blocks as well driveways. This force the ROW to the centre of the road.

The Richview can support one side of the the road for the ROW, but some changes will have to made to make it work.

Any new LRT will work on St Clair and St Clair was to be the showcase for the new system, but the city kill that vision, not TTC.

Stop spacing is an issue regardless if it TC or St Clair. There are stops on St Clair that should not be there now.

As much as ppl want fast service along the lines if they are getting on near the end of the line, you got to think about the ppl who live in the middle as how far they would have to walk to a stop to please the fast trip riders.

400-450m is the max distance using the box or triangle to determined the walking distance on either side of the ROW to a stop. The distance in a straight line between stop would mean a rider has no more than 200-225m to a stop if they live in the middle.

Based on some stops I know that are being remove under TC, the walking distance will become 900m vs. the current 300m. Goes against the 5 minute walking distance to a stop.

 

[Voltz]

St Clair was started before the transit city plans came out, so I wouldn't say it was fully intended to be a show case line. What the city needs to do is get the signal priority fixed, if it wants to use it as a example for future lines.

 

[kEiThZ]

Any new LRT will work on St Clair and St Clair was to be the showcase for the new system, but the city kill that vision, not TTC.

What? Why would they do that? St. Clair would have been a great showcase for the evolution of the streetcar.....

 

[Jonny5]

What? Why would they do that? St. Clair would have been a great showcase for the evolution of the streetcar.....

The TTC (and it's contractors) have performed very well on St.Clair. They are completing all their work in the time they anticipated (with the exception of the surprise problems at St. Clair West).

The delays relate to the city's last second morphing of the rather simple, low budget project to include replacing all the hydro and water infrastructure and doing "streetscaping". Toronto Hydro and Water Works, which are both years behind their scheduled work, essentially told the city "Sure, we'll do it" signed on to the project and then said, "When we get around to it." Three years later, they are now getting around to it.

If this all went down as originally planned and they just replaced the tracks and added a 5 inch curb, it would have been done in six months.

 

[junctionist]

At least they took aesthetics into consideration and are doing the kind of thorough transformation that ought to be done throughout the city on main streets. Ideally even street repaving projects would be preceded by the burying of utilities and replacement of the necessary pipes.

 

[drum118]

NOTE: TTC has nothing to do with the hiring of contractors to do the work of tearing up the tracks or rebuilding the road/ROW. That the city responsibility.

TTC only lay the tracks and switches as well overhead wiring.

The city has final say how wide, long and location of tracks and platforms. TTC has requested wider width and length of platforms. TTC can ask for things, but the traffic planners had the final say.

St Clair phase III and phase II&III of Dundas had good contractors as well Bathurst. Others should never do another TTC project these past 3 years.

What was supposed to take place for the conversion of Lansdowne Loop and what went in, is a scale down cheap version since the City or the BIA would pickup the full cost of the conversion. TTC was under the impression the loop went in as plan.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Roncesvalles will be reconstructing the streetcar tracks in 2010. However, the water mains are old and made of lead. They have to be replaced. Along with the sidewalk and asphalt replacement to do the process. Digging the street and replacing the mains will mean that work will have to begin in the summer of 2009.

So while the track replacement may seem to take a couple of years, it is really the work surrounding the trackwork that extends the construction.

(It also includes the sidewalk bumpouts at the streetcar stops.)

 

[taal]

I do think we give the TTC a lot of shit that they don't always deserve ...

Note that "don't always" part : - )

 

[drum118]

Roncesvalles will be reconstructing the streetcar tracks in 2010. However, the water mains are old and made of lead. They have to be replaced. Along with the sidewalk and asphalt replacement to do the process. Digging the street and replacing the mains will mean that work will have to begin in the summer of 2009.

So while the track replacement may seem to take a couple of years, it is really the work surrounding the trackwork that extends the construction.

(It also includes the sidewalk bumpouts at the streetcar stops.)

It is my understanding TTC has requested the stops to be located at mid block, not the cor now. TTC feels it a better way dealing with traffic turning on/off the side streets.

The bumpouts where to act as a platform for the streetcars, but the cycling committee has got the platforms move back a meter so bikes can get past the platforms.

This means the issue surrounding accessibility for the new LRT just went down the tube.

The users for transit just got the shaft for a few cycles on a road that cannot support bike lanes in the first place. Cycles still have to use the streetcar tracks to travel the road in the first place so why move the platforms back now????

Based on past performance for construction of the streetcar tracks, it should take no more than 4 month to do the full length of Roncesvalles. This includes the switch for Dundas as well the crossover. Sidewalks and road reconstruction is another story. Using St Clair as a bench mark, a year for every thing. I surprise hydro has not been asked to put their system underground and if so, it would be years before that happen and put this project on hold until they did.

 

[Chris84]

Oakwood Loop Reconstruction to Start Next Week

According to this notice, the Oakwood Loop will be reconstructed between October 20 and November 3.
Installation of the large watermain under the north side of St. Clair has proceeded rapidly between Kenwood and Winona but the connections won't all be complete until February. The notice also mentions the removal of the hydro wires on the south side of St. Clair from Vaughan to Westmount but no timing is given.
No specific timing is given for the construction of the ROW itself and sidewalks but hopefully this will start as soon as all the watemain connections are completed in a particular stretch?