Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

nfitz said:
632% inflation in 50 years? For the construction CPI? That's about 3.8% per year. It's been running at about 6% for the last decade!
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Yeah, that's what calculations infer. Pity how public apathy and political backsliding has prolonged the process of getting these extensions built to the point of costing the taxpayer hundreds of times more than what construction could and should've been.
 
What is causing construction to have such a high inflation rate? Is it a construction labour shortage or what?
 
It's obviously a number of factors, but as has been mentioned before, a lot of it seems to be poor project management. The TTC is spending $700 million on consultants for the Yonge extension alone. That's pretty much a scandal.
 
unimaginative2 said:
It's obviously a number of factors, but as has been mentioned before, a lot of it seems to be poor project management. The TTC is spending $700 million on consultants for the Yonge extension alone. That's pretty much a scandal.
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can you share some proof/links?

also, what roles do the consultants have?
 
unimaginative2 said:
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f3842/Yonge_Subway_Extension_-_Final_Report_on_Transit_Project_Assessment_Process_Approval_of_Staff_Recommendations.pdf

Page 23
Engineering and other costs: $670 million
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thanks.

so is the $670M the cost for the design/drawings, etc.?

how does this cost number compare with similar projects?

if this is a high cost compared to projects on a similar scope, are there any extraordinary aspects to take into consideration for this project that can justify $670M?

is there an average expected cost for "engineering and other costs" per KM or M of construction?
 
unimaginative2 said:
The TTC is spending $700 million on consultants for the Yonge extension alone. That's pretty much a scandal.
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Yeah, that makes sense ... bid something out to the lowest bidder in an open market, and it's over-priced ... right.

There's lots of thing to drive these prices up ... compare H&S requirements to what they were in the 1950s for example. Back then, it was acceptable to have a lot more deaths in a construction project than it is now ...or it is in other countries ... Spain for example has a death-rate about 3-times higher than here. Materials costs have sky-rocketed ... concrete prices have increased much faster than inflation, with all the environmental restrictions on how difficult it is to extract rock. Steel has increased much faster than inflation. There's lots of reasons ...
 
nfitz said:
Yeah, that makes sense ... bid something out to the lowest bidder in an open market, and it's over-priced ... right.

There's lots of thing to drive these prices up ... compare H&S requirements to what they were in the 1950s for example. Back then, it was acceptable to have a lot more deaths in a construction project than it is now ...or it is in other countries ... Spain for example has a death-rate about 3-times higher than here. Materials costs have sky-rocketed ... concrete prices have increased much faster than inflation, with all the environmental restrictions on how difficult it is to extract rock. Steel has increased much faster than inflation. There's lots of reasons ...
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Although not affecting costs as dramatically, there are many other little things that add up. The fire code and accessibility laws have changed a lot since the 1950s driving up the costs of stations, for example.

I wonder what a cost comparison would look like between the construction of the Queensway ROW and today's TC lines.
 
I'm not talking about the fifties. I'm talking about the fact that consulting is costing two thirds of what an entire subway line of comparable distance and greater engineering complexity (Sheppard-Yonge interchange) cost a decade ago.

Yeah, that makes sense ... bid something out to the lowest bidder in an open market, and it's over-priced ... right.
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The TTC doesn't put out a tender for a fixed-price contract on engineering consulting. The consultants are paid by the hour.
 
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unimaginative2 said:
The TTC doesn't put out a tender for a fixed-price contract on engineering consulting. The consultants are paid by the hour.
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As an engineering consultant, I can tell you that's bullshit. Contact price not to exceed. If no change in scope, there is no more money.
 
nfitz said:
As an engineering consultant, I can tell you that's bullshit. Contact price not to exceed. If no change in scope, there is no more money.
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There are times depending on the job, hour rate is used as there is no time to come up with a fix cost.

I cannot speak for TTC on this, but based on my experance outside transit I can.
 
lesouris said:
Although not affecting costs as dramatically, there are many other little things that add up. The fire code and accessibility laws have changed a lot since the 1950s driving up the costs of stations, for example.

I wonder what a cost comparison would look like between the construction of the Queensway ROW and today's TC lines.
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If you want to compare to the 1950s, consider that the average income then was under $2000 and today it is $50000. If you look in that perspective, we're getting a deal.

Although it might be cheaper if we could still hand a shovel to every starving Italian who comes off the boat, we have to accept that times have changed.
 
Does anyone know what on earth is going on with the extension? Has it been postponed to next year?
 
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