Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[dowlingm]

The service might terminate at York but the trains continue and turn using Steeles crossover, assuming the stuff not completed at Steeles station to that point was above track level. More running time obviously. If it's not technically possible it won't take the Province long to call a bluff, but I also feel that in private TTC/City may tell Metrolinx/Ontario that the announcement was political in nature given the bad news the latter bodies had handed out this week - no help for overruns and here's a bill your taxpayers have not been politically softened up to expect.

 

[44 North]

Isn't there also the larger issue that Steeles/Black Creek Pioneer Village is one of the furthest-behind stations?

IIRC, they can't turn trains around at York; they have to turn them around at Steeles, so how does that work?

Plus, if TTC wants York Region to pay any share of the over-runs, I feel like they might be less open to that discussion if "their" stations are getting delayed to speed things up for Toronto. could be interesting...

Don’t all of the stations belong to the TTC – so in a way, everything is “theirs� I believe all that YR owns is the nearby bus terminal. Or rather, the corporately-branded mouthful: “SmartCentres Terminal — Vaughan Metropolitan Centre†(which I guess is owned by SmartCentres, bizarre as that seems).

 

[rbt]

Abandon it with the tunnel already built and the station structures already in place? Does that make sense?

It might when you realize maintenance of the tunnel and stations is around $45M/year (roughly 1.5% of replacement cost) and increases with the construction inflation rate (4% to 6%). Note, that's capital replacement/repairs only. This doesn't include the other $40M/year for operations of that segment.

Really depends on how much you want to subsidize each rider to take it. $80M/year can run a crap-ton of surface service with unmanned stations (be it bus, LRT, or even Toronto Rocket based).


People cheer on London for going underground (and it is a great system) but what they miss is that Transport for London's 2014 budget was over $11B CAD; the entire Toronto budget (including TTC as a part of it) is only $10B. Going underground is expensive both upfront and in the long-run.

It is certainly useful where ridership can support it though, but a fiscal conservative paying attention would try almost anything else first.

 

[Uncle Teddy]

Isn't there also the larger issue that Steeles/Black Creek Pioneer Village is one of the furthest-behind stations?

IIRC, they can't turn trains around at York; they have to turn them around at Steeles, so how does that work?

Turn them around at Finch West until the northern stuff is complete. What's the big deal?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Turn them around at Finch West until the northern stuff is complete. What's the big deal?

You can't turn around trains unless there's a crossover track, right?

And Tory didn't say Finch West; he said Steeles. As dumb as it is to open the line without the York Region stations, it's even dumber to open it short of York U. As in, pointless.

I stand to be corrected but I believe it's only designed for turnarounds at Steeles. I think Dowlingm is right: the only way to do it is, assuming the infrastructure is there, to run trains from York U up to the unfinished Steeles station for the sole purpose of turning around. That's how we build transit in Toronto: over-budget, over-schedule and half-assed as can be.


And for the 2 or 3 people who think the line will be "abandoned," north of Steeles, you all are just totally out to lunch. One could spend DAYS listing all the ways it's dumb and wasteful. Speaking of totally out to lunch...

Don’t all of the stations belong to the TTC – so in a way, everything is “theirs”? I believe all that YR owns is the nearby bus terminal. Or rather, the corporately-branded mouthful: “SmartCentres Terminal — Vaughan Metropolitan Centre” (which I guess is owned by SmartCentres, bizarre as that seems).

...Oh, gosh. I almost didn't recognize you with the new avatar.

I didn't mean York Region OWNS the stations! I meant they are IN YORK REGION. So, if York Region is paying 40% of the municipal share (which they are!) and if TTC is trying to figure out how to pay the $400M over-run (which they are!), my point is that YR is unlikely to be happy about chipping in 40% of that (or anything!) if the short-term plan involves opening all the subway stations, except the ones in York Region.

Oh, and (not surprisingly) you're wrong about the bus terminal too. Yes, there are two bus terminals at Steeles; one for TTC and one for YRT. The "Smart Centres" terminal will be at VMC. So you're right about that, but it's not the only terminal they own.

The branding is awkward (I kind of hope there won't be penguins) but there's nothing BIZARRE about it. The site is on SmartCentres's land but obviously YRT will own it; part of the deal was that, in exchange, the landowners get to brand it. I kind of hate it, but on the other hand, if TTC branded one of their stations to make up some of the $400M, it wouldn't be the dumbest thing they've ever done. (I mean, it's not like anyone is going to say, "Hey, don't meet me down on the platform. Meet me at the SmartCentres bus terminal...")

 

[ksun]

I really hate how this is called the Spadina Extension

you mean as it is nowhere near Spadina Road?
I think the entire branch should be renamed. I know there is historical reasons, but the name is still largely misleading.

I came across a webpage when the Spadina line was the new line:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/photos/images/spadina-subway-brochure-1978.jpg

 

[44 North]

I didn't mean York Region OWNS the stations! I meant they are IN YORK REGION. So, if York Region is paying 40% of the municipal share (which they are!) and if TTC is trying to figure out how to pay the $400M over-run (which they are!), my point is that YR is unlikely to be happy about chipping in 40% of that (or anything!) if the short-term plan involves opening all the subway stations, except the ones in York Region.

Before you reedit your comment for the fourth time; “their” usually signifies ownership. So when you say the stations north of Steeles are York Region’s, while south of Steeles the stations are TTC’s...it’s not really correct. They’re all TTC’s stations.

 

[Jonny5]

The Idea is to abandon the subway North of YU, I believe. The idea isn't unprecedented- the TTC considered doing the same to Sheppard Line

The TTC was ordered to consider it by Adam Giambrone. They considered it, and rejected it as it was a net financial negative.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

you mean as it is nowhere near Spadina Road?
I think the entire branch should be renamed. I know there is historical reasons, but the name is still largely misleading.

I came across a webpage when the Spadina line was the new line:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/photos/images/spadina-subway-brochure-1978.jpg

Allen Road, which was originally called the Spadina Expressway, was built at the same time as Spadina Line. Somewhere down the line the name of the expressway changed to Allen Road.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Before you reedit your comment for the fourth time; “their” usually signifies ownership. So when you say the stations north of Steeles are York Region’s, while south of Steeles the stations are TTC’s...it’s not really correct. They’re all TTC’s stations.

You got me, thanks for the English lessons, Commander Data.
I'm sure your ability to develop understanding of connotations, figurative use of language etc. will develop the more time you spend around humans.

Most people understood what I meant but if we were in court, yes, your "their implies ownership" argument might just nail me. Except I put in quotes, indicating I knew York Region didn't own the stations, much as if I say that now you "understand" what's going on but use the quotes to indicate that really I don't think you do.

And the "Spadina extension" name is a bit of a misnomer but then, as others have pointed out, hardly any of the south part of the line runs under Spadina either. It's just a project name and once it opens, in 2018 or 2019, it'll all just be "Line 1" anyway.

 

[44 North]

It wasn’t an English lesson. It was an attempt to fix someone’s erroneous post which made the claim that York Region owns two stations. Somewhat like your other multitude of erroneous posts (e.g how a secondary plan is impossible to change – even after it’s been changed, changes to official plans are irrelevant and don’t mean the plan will change – even though it does, etc).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

It wasn’t an English lesson. It was an attempt to fix someone’s erroneous post which made the claim that York Region owns two stations. Somewhat like your other multitude of erroneous posts (e.g how a secondary plan is impossible to change – even after it’s been changed, changes to official plans are irrelevant and don’t mean the plan will change – even though it does, etc).

Woah, things can change? Never knew that. Now you're getting all existential on me.

Anyway, to return to my on-thread point:
-it will be awfully interesting to see if they can come up with some sort of interim opening plan given that:
a) They'd have to go one station further than they want to turn around the train and both that station (Steeles) and the proposed interim terminus (York) are among the furthest-behind stations.
b) One of their funding partners will get screwed in the short term by a plan to not open stations north of York U. (2 of the partners, if you count the fact that the provincial transpo minister's riding is where those lines are even though, yes, I think we all agree he doesn't own them.)

 

[Markster]

You can't turn around trains unless there's a crossover track, right?

And Tory didn't say Finch West; he said Steeles. As dumb as it is to open the line without the York Region stations, it's even dumber to open it short of York U. As in, pointless.

Tory didn't say Steeles, he said "examine every plausible option to get the trains running as soon as possible for the least possible cost".

I stand to be corrected but I believe it's only designed for turnarounds at Steeles. I think Dowlingm is right: the only way to do it is, assuming the infrastructure is there, to run trains from York U up to the unfinished Steeles station for the sole purpose of turning around.

There is a pocket track just north of Finch West.

York University station is one of the most heavily delayed stations on the line. If the goal is to get trains running on the extension as soon as possible, then a 2-stop extension to Finch is exactly what needs to happen. There are countless people riding the Finch West bus who wouldn't think it is "pointless" to open the line to Finch as a first step.

 

[44 North]

Woah, things can change? Never knew that. Now you're getting all existential on me.

But you didn’t know that. There are quite a number of lengthy posts of yours in the GTA Sprawl thread which made that clear. And even after I gave you evidence that an official plan had in fact changed – you still denied that it was possible, and tried in vain to explain the impossibility.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Tory didn't say Steeles, he said "examine every plausible option to get the trains running as soon as possible for the least possible cost".

From the Globe & Mail:
The transit commission’s board will meet on March 26 to discuss the report, but in the meantime, mayor said that he is open to all options to “stop the bleeding,” including a “phased opening” that would see trains turn around at York University to start.


And from The Star:
Tory said TTC chief executive Andy Byford, who is away, briefed him a few days ago on the possibility of significant cost overruns. The amount of money it will take to finish the extension depends on what options are chosen, including whether the subway could initially run only as far as York University.

So he's "open to options" but I didn't imagine the York-terminal thing (I did mis-type "Steeles" in that last post, however). And I believe others have verified, they can't turn York into a terminal unless they run the trains up to the not-open-yet Steeles station for the sole purpose of turning around.

44, dude, no one wants to hear us bitching here too. You're wrong - I know perfectly well how OPs, OPAs, Secondary Plans and zoning work, I assure you. I never said things don't change, I merely let you know (because you didn't) that concrete plans were already in place. In the interests of staying on-thread, I will tell you that I have seen and am familiar with the plans for VMC (including both SmartCentres' plan and the Interchange lands on the south side of Hwy. 7) and if you told me no development was going on up there, I'd once again explain them to you. I am nonetheless well aware they can change; indeed, if the OP couldn't change, how would they even have plans in the first place??!! I guess, in your imagination of my imagination, Vaughan would still be operating with an unchanged Victorian-era document?

The idea that I tried to explain to you that an OP can't be amended is so absurd I'm just really starting to wonder what's going on in your headspace. But, by all means, keep touting your transit fantasy map as a viable alternative to the Big Move while lecturing me on impossibility. Sigh.