Toronto Park Lawn GO Station | 12.83m | 2s | First Capital | Hatch

AlxOptimism said:
Maybe this is why they've been stalling on implementation? Along with through-running complicating things

Anyway I vote we make the Bolton Line the Δ Delta line, to reduce confusion 😃
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Also combine the A (Lakeshore West) Line and G (Lakeshore East) Line into the Superline (
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Honest question, what is the point of this station? I get that there's buildings here, but there's already a GO station that's way too close to it, it slows down the whole commuter rail system, and it just adds as option for people to pay two fares instead of one. I live at long branch and I don't use GO unless there's an emergency. They're on the 501 which will get a bit better with the Relief line. I get it would be better to have a fast way to at least Exhibition, but is this the best solution?
 
White Pine said:
Honest question, what is the point of this station? I get that there's buildings here, but there's already a GO station that's way too close to it, it slows down the whole commuter rail system, and it just adds as option for people to pay two fares instead of one. I live at long branch and I don't use GO unless there's an emergency. They're on the 501 which will get a bit better with the Relief line. I get it would be better to have a fast way to at least Exhibition, but is this the best solution?
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it is, because that closest GO station is tucked away with a circuitous route to get to it. Pretty close to useless, even though the straight-line distance to the Mimico platform is indeed quite short.

I suppose one could argue for an extension of the Ontario Line, or a dedicated LRT to the waterfront instead…. but those options are pricier and have other impacts.

Certainly the density at Humber Bay demands some form of higher order transit, and when the Christie Lands get developed it will be doubly so. Adding a GO stop (for local service only) is pretty doable - and expedient.

- Paul
 
White Pine said:
Honest question, what is the point of this station? I get that there's buildings here, but there's already a GO station that's way too close to it, it slows down the whole commuter rail system, and it just adds as option for people to pay two fares instead of one. I live at long branch and I don't use GO unless there's an emergency. They're on the 501 which will get a bit better with the Relief line. I get it would be better to have a fast way to at least Exhibition, but is this the best solution?
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To give a longer version of what others have said: Overall, the goal of the province for years (this goes back to the previous government), is to transform GO into something closer to a regional metro service. That means more frequent, electric trains, and also more frequent stops (as electric trains accelerate and break faster and therefore can do more stops in the same amount of time as the current diesel trains. When Metrolinx initially had issues with putting a station here, it was because they based their analysis on diesel trains, but when they re-examined the project with electric trains as the plan, it was found to be beneficial to the GO network. So think of this as less of a detrimental impact on the current commuter rail system, and more a part of an overall transformation of what GO rail service is. Lots of people in this area work downtown or in Liberty Village. They will be incredibly well served by this station, which will get them downtown far faster than the streetcar ever could. Also fare integration between the TTC and GO is a big objective of multiple levels of government and has been in negotiations for years. By the time we get this station open, there will likely be some sort of agreement, as it's critical to the success of the entire transformation of the GO network to have seemless connections to local transit agencies. The only thing holding that back is that no one wants to pay the costs the TTC would incur, due to being the most fare dependent transit system in North America, but it'll get figured out eventually.
 
White Pine said:
Honest question, what is the point of this station? I get that there's buildings here, but there's already a GO station that's way too close to it, it slows down the whole commuter rail system, and it just adds as option for people to pay two fares instead of one. I live at long branch and I don't use GO unless there's an emergency. They're on the 501 which will get a bit better with the Relief line. I get it would be better to have a fast way to at least Exhibition, but is this the best solution?
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It is inevitable that there will be fare integration in the GTA. The current regime is just too insane to persist, especially given the huge investments we're making in transit. We need people to use it.

Even without integration, don't you think people would be willing to spend <$4.40 (fare from Mimico to Union) vs $3.25 for TTC to get downtown in like 15 minutes vs 30 on the streetcar?
 
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afransen said:
It is inevitable that there will be fare integration in the GTA. The current regime is just too insane to persist, especially given the huge investments we're making in transit. We need people to use it.
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I’m skeptical. To my understanding, the last remaining immediate piece for fare integration is the TTC/GO and TTC/surrounding agencies. That’s serious stable money for Toronto transit operations, and no provincial government of any stripe has had the appetite for this after the 90s. It’s the right thing to do, but so is significant funding for homelessness and affordable housing - and see where we are with those files.
 
afransen said:
It is inevitable that there will be fare integration in the GTA. The current regime is just too insane to persist, especially given the huge investments we're making in transit. We need people to use it.

Even without integration, don't you think people would be willing to spend <$4.40 (fare from Mimico to Union) vs $3.25 for TTC to get downtown in like 15 minutes vs 30 on the streetcar?
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Getting from, say, 2230 Lake Shore Blvd West (Beyond the Sea Condos) to Queen and Bay by streetcar can take an hour at rush hour. The same trip from Mimico GO station, which is further west than Park Lawn, can take 27-30 minutes by GO and walking from Union. That's a huge difference.

Most people would probably take the GO train. A GO station at Park Lawn would essentially be rapid transit for people in the area without the government having to spend $2-5 billion to build a subway to the area.
 
allengeorge said:
I’m skeptical. To my understanding, the last remaining immediate piece for fare integration is the TTC/GO and TTC/surrounding agencies. That’s serious stable money for Toronto transit operations, and no provincial government of any stripe has had the appetite for this after the 90s. It’s the right thing to do, but so is significant funding for homelessness and affordable housing - and see where we are with those files.
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Fare integration has its own thread, so I will take pains not to digress…. but as it applies to Park Lawn, certainly fare integration when it comes will make GO-municipal trips much more attractive today.

I am not sure, however, that fare integration matters as much to the Park Lawn situation as you suggest.

Having a GO station within the first-mile radius creates a much wider network of possible one-fare trips than exists today. Those trips will have a huge time improvement over either transit or auto. That's a ridership incentive.

For the travel-to-central-Toronto market, for many the difference in fare versus TTC today will be roughly a dollar a trip. Even for a daily commuter, that's a difference of $500 a year. For people living in million-dollar condos that's tolerable. The reality is, Humber Bay will never be an affordable housing or lower-income precinct. People down that way can absorb the fare differential.

The prize at Humber Bay is reduction in auto volumes, and improved trip times. Right now traffic is awful, and the Christie Project may create near-gridlock conditions. That's not hyperbole, it's going to be crazy down there, already is. On top of that, the primary downtown transit link, the 501, is about to be compromised by Ontario Line construction. Already, people only use the 501 because they have to ..... it's a tortuous way to get downtown or across the City. The bus link to Line 2 at Bloor is also a time consuming way to travel.

Regional GO, with GO style vehicles, frequent service, and quicker trips to much of the GTA, will be seen as value for money. Far nicer way to commute than either 501 or Line 2. Or by car gi ven road congestion and cost.

And, if the TTC-GO fare is integrated (it's certainly solvable if people would get off Political Top Dead Center, but that's for the other thread) the price point improves over today.

- Paul
 
White Pine said:
Honest question, what is the point of this station? I get that there's buildings here, but there's already a GO station that's way too close to it, it slows down the whole commuter rail system, and it just adds as option for people to pay two fares instead of one. I live at long branch and I don't use GO unless there's an emergency. They're on the 501 which will get a bit better with the Relief line. I get it would be better to have a fast way to at least Exhibition, but is this the best solution?
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Further to what others have mentioned, it provides a far better transit connections than Mimico station. It will be directly be served by the 66 with stops right next to the entrances, and by the 501 via new Park Lawn Loop. The loop will also allow short-turning 501 streetcars to actually serve the huge population centre that is Humber Bay, rather than terminating at Humber Loop.

However, it is very concerning that the landscape design in the application completely ignores the future streetcar line. You'd think that if they seriously intended to build it they'd at least leave a space for it in the landscaping. Sure, the TTC would be the one building the tracks in the end, but the developer needs to provide the space for it.

See the (lack of) streetcar line in the bottom right
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reaperexpress said:
However, it is very concerning that the landscape design in the application completely ignores the future streetcar line. You'd think that if they seriously intended to build it they'd at least leave a space for it in the landscaping. Sure, the TTC would be the one building the tracks in the end, but the developer needs to provide the space for it.

See the (lack of) streetcar line in the bottom right
1667986875621-png.438113
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I don't understand your concern. The plan you've shown clearly and explicitly leaves an allowance for the streetcar tracks. (There are two references to them, in fact.) What more are you looking for, exactly?

It seems clear to me that they have allowed for it even if they are going to be landscaping the area in the interim.

Dan
 
smallspy said:
I don't understand your concern. The plan you've shown clearly and explicitly leaves an allowance for the streetcar tracks. (There are two references to them, in fact.) What more are you looking for, exactly?

It seems clear to me that they have allowed for it even if they are going to be landscaping the area in the interim.

Dan
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I'm looking for a landscape design which leaves a 7-metre corridor of grass or concrete or whatever which can be replaced by streetcar tracks without needing to redesign the whole space. They are planning to plant trees directly in the path of the streetcar tracks ffs.
 
reaperexpress said:
I'm looking for a landscape design which leaves a 7-metre corridor of grass or concrete or whatever which can be replaced by streetcar tracks without needing to redesign the whole space.
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So long as they've accounted for the tracks, shouldn't the fact that they do or don't need to "redesign the whole space" more of a "them" problem?

I don't care what it looks like, so long as it can be done with a minimum of muss and fuss. There are lots of places where they've future-proofed infrastructure to allow for further improvements - I don't see this as any different.

Dan
 
smallspy said:
So long as they've accounted for the tracks, shouldn't the fact that they do or don't need to "redesign the whole space" more of a "them" problem?

I don't care what it looks like, so long as it can be done with a minimum of muss and fuss. There are lots of places where they've future-proofed infrastructure to allow for further improvements - I don't see this as any different.

Dan
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Once people start living there, it becomes an "us" problem because residents will get upset that we need to tear up their plaza and cut down the trees in order to install a streetcar line which they will oppose on the basis of noise. It needs to be abundantly clear from day one that there will be a streetcar line running through there.
 
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