Toronto Park Lawn GO Station | 12.83m | 2s | First Capital | Hatch

Bojaxs said:
Re-read my post. I corrected it to mention Toronto people wishing to travel outside of Toronto and across the GTA.

GO transit cannot be a regional rail service while adding so many stops within Toronto. TTC needs to step up and fill the gaps.
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I don't know why it can't. There are enough tracks in the corridor to handle U-Bahn, S-Bahn, Regional, and national services. Are you saying the TTC should run trains down these tracks? Who cares what the logos on the trains are? The province is paying for TTC expansion... it makes sense for the province to efficiently use the infrastructure it already has. Tunneling a subway to connect Etobicoke waterfront to Port Credit, Humber College on Lakeshore, Mimico, Exhibition, and Union doesn't make much fiscal sense.
 
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EnviroTO said:
Are you saying the TTC should run trains down these tracks? Who cares what the logos on the trains are?
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Expand subway network so more Toronto resident have quick access to existing GO stations.

If the Ontario line gets extended westward from Exhibition do we still need to build a GO station to serve the people of Liberty Village?
 
Bojaxs said:
Thought we were trying to encourage off peak travel???
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Yes we are.

Generally speaking, commuting with the car will always be faster compared to transit in the off-peak no matter what mode of public transit you use. That's the nature of public transit, it's doing multiple stops to pick up/drop off passengers while ultimately reaching its destination. A car isnt, so obviously it's going to be faster. Again, those car commute time will get worse over the years as more people move into the GTHA.

Bojaxs said:
Won't electrified trains have to stop at stations just as long as diesel trains? In terms of acceleration from a station, how much time is an electrified train shaving off from a diesel pushing a 6 car consist?
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Station dwell times dont depend on whether a consist is diesel or electric. It depends on the equipment, number of passengers served and a couple other factors. I'm not going to look into the numbers now, but the difference is there and noticeable. Noticeable enough that Metrolinx decided to proceed with electrifying parts of the network.

Bojaxs said:
As I asked earlier. Why not have electrified trains and not add all these stops?
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Feel free to reach out to people who will be running the GO Train network starting next year since our explanations havent been good enough for you:

Media inquiries | ONxpress

Please direct media inquiries to Metrolinx Media Relations at mediarelations@metrolinx.com. For more information, please visit the Metrolinx Press Room: https://www.metrolinx.com/en/news.
onxpress.com onxpress.com
 
Bojaxs said:
If the Ontario line gets extended westward from Exhibition do we still need to build a GO station to serve the people of Liberty Village?
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So the rationale against a GO station at Park Lawn is that some day a subway might go there? Such a train would likely be an extension of the Ontario Line but would run in the rail corridor... so it wouldn't be a "subway" in the underground sense, but would be some rail vehicle using electric propulsion running on the surface... with a TTC sticker on it.. maybe.

Wait, why are you saying Liberty Village... that is Exhibition station or are you saying get rid of Exhibition too?
 
This issue is going to be addressed with stopping patterns: a mix of local and express trains will provide both speed and additional stations. The solution already exists, we're already running a version of it on both Lakeshore branches, and it will almost certainly be further developed when we get more stations.
 
Bojaxs said:
GO transit cannot be a regional rail service while adding so many stops within Toronto. TTC needs to step up and fill the gaps.
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Why can't it be? Not all trains have to stop at every stop (note the 4-track corridor in this location). Also, not all people travelling from Oakville are heading downtown. What if someone wanted to visit a friend in one of the condos at Park Lawn? Or maybe they live in Burlington and work at the Ontario Food Terminal? Or are they coming from Whitby and want to visit Humber Bay Park and Bike the Humber River trail? these trips would have all been impractical by transit before, but with this stop, it will be quite possible and probably more attractive than driving. these examples are specific to Park Lawn, but I'm sure similar examples can be made at any of the new stations. Imagine the following service pattern on LW,
  • Express trains every 20 minutes, skipping Long Branch, Mimico and Park Lawn
  • Local trains every 10 minutes, all stops from Oakville

That seems to serve everyone's needs pretty well; you get your fast train to Toronto, and others get served by the transit they need.
 
Why not get rid of stops? Port Credit and Cooksville might be enough for Mississauga, it has a much smaller population. Just improve MiWay to take people there. One station for Oakville is probably more than enough... just get Oakville Transit to get people there. People from Hamilton going to Union don't need to stop at Appleby or Clarkson or Long Branch. Close those stations, trains go faster.

Why? Because transit works better when there are stops near where people start their trip and where they end. Parking lots aren't going to get any bigger, so as service increases more stops will be required to distribute the load over a wider area. We can't fill up transit with people passing where they want to go and backtracking on some over expensive transit running right next to the tracks they were on. That is a waste of capacity and money.
 
@Bojaxs you posted this already on the 11th of February.
Bojaxs said:
This station is so close to Mimico. Definitely not looking forward to my trips to and from Toronto taking longer. I get that it looks appealing to put a station here because of all the high density in the area. If that's the case, then they should seriously consider closing down Mimico once this station opens.
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And these were the responses:
goodcitywhenfinished said:
These stations being close wouldn’t be an issue if GO operated EMUs.
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reaperexpress said:
If you're going "to and from" Toronto then you are coming from outside the City and would probably be on an express train anyway, which doesn't stop here. There are 4 tracks, so the speed of local trains has little effect on the speed of express trains.
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nfitz said:
They've been talking about adding this station for decades. GO could well have EMUs, or at least shorter and lighter trains with more acceleration by then.

These days they only do 5 stops between Union and Oakville - travel time 36 minutes at peak. Sixty years ago they did 8 stops in between, with travel time of 43 minutes. Another stop on the non-express services won't break things.
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Undead said:
The service patterns will be adjusted to account for the new station if I remember correctly.
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It has been made abundantly clear to you that the local trains stopping at Park Lawn will not be the same trains that carry people into Toronto from other cities, and that there are four tracks, so the two service types can operate relatively independently from each other. And yet you continue to spew the same invalid claim that the existance of Park Lawn station will somehow slow down travel into Toronto from other municipalities. You never at any point made any attempt to explain how the presence of platforms on the local tracks would affect express trains on the express tracks. At one point you did mention that half of trains "should" skip Park Lawn, and ignored the fact that everyone was already telling you that half of the trains (i.e. the express trains) will skip the station.

You then proceeded to ask the same question again numerous times, completely ignoring all of the people who already comprehensively answered it all of the previous times you asked.
Bojaxs said:
Wait and see what happens when they electrify. They're going to use it as an excuse to add more stops to the lines. Essentially neutralizing all the speed gains made by electrification.
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Bojaxs said:
The only way this will work is if trains going along LSW alternate between stopping at Mimico and Park Lawn. Otherwise having all trains stop at both station consecutively will add a lot of time to the trip and make the train less competitive with the automobile.

Frankly this is an issue with a lot of the smart track stations being added to the GO network. Lets just keep adding stops to our network so everyone can have a station at their doorstep, completely sacrificing the meaning of "rapid", and eventually the GO trains will suffer the same fate as Toronto's streetcars.
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Bojaxs said:
What if we had electric trains and didn't add these stops? Imagine how quickly you could get to and from Toronto.

And what's the benefit of electrification (speed wise), if we're just going to add even more stops then?
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Bojaxs said:
The problem is the train is already not competitive with driving. Driving from Oakville to Toronto is already faster than taking the train. Add more stations and GO transit is committing suicide.

GO transit cannot be both a Regional rail service for the GTA and a metro for Toronto. It has to be one or the other.
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Bojaxs said:
GO transit cannot be a regional rail service while adding so many stops within Toronto. TTC needs to step up and fill the gaps.
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Bojaxs said:
So we should just accept more stops and longer train trips?

GO transit shouldn't have to pick up the slack for municipalities who can't keep up with their exploding populations. Cities like Toronto should figure out how to quickly move their residents to existing GO trian stations instead of expecting completely new ones to be built.
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Bojaxs said:
Won't electrified trains have to stop at stations just as long as diesel trains? In terms of acceleration from a station, how much time is an electrified train shaving off from a diesel pushing a 6 car consist?

As I asked earlier. Why not have electrified trains and not add all these stops?
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At this point you are not contributing any intelligent discussion, you are merely derailing the thread.
 
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Metroscapes said:
The documented rationale for keeping Mimico aside, is it any factor that the TOD plans for Mimico GO keep getting...sigh...derailed?

Really donning a tin foil hat here, but would the government use this as an excuse to cut costs by not refreshing a station and operate it because of these plans falling through?

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The amount of density coming to the Mimico area, aside from the direct TOC proposal is substantial and justifies station retention; the refurbishment of the station isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme of things, and I don't see the latest setback resulting in cancellation of that project or station closure. I do expect it will set back the timeline of the work; and that if Mx chooses to do the work w/o a partner, that it will be royally VE'd.
 
Bojaxs said:
But the whole point of the GO train from it's inception in the 1960's was to serve the people outside of Toronto as a means to move people efficiently across the GTA without a car.
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No, it wasn't.

It's purpose was the prevent the building of new highways and expanding of existing ones, both in the region of what was then Metropolitan Toronto and the greater area around it. It was meant to prevent people from driving into downtown Toronto by capturing them in the suburbs. It it was going to do that by getting them to drive to stations, and getting them to sit on trains into downtown.

Have you never noticed that when GO was launched that there was only one station outside of what is now Toronto to the east? And only a handful to the west?

Dan
 
Metroscapes said:
The documented rationale for keeping Mimico aside, is it any factor that the TOD plans for Mimico GO keep getting...sigh...derailed?

Really donning a tin foil hat here, but would the government use this as an excuse to cut costs by not refreshing a station and operate it because of these plans falling through?

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The track record of TOD isn’t great…. Ford announced Woodbine in 2017 with great fanfare, and it has ‘t happened. Mimico also received lots of fanfare. But beyond the immediate bounds of the Mimico project, a lot of densification is moving forward. So I would think that QP will just try to keep the project moving and keep the volume low until somebody does get the work done.

- Paul
 
Bojaxs said:
But the whole point of the GO train from it's inception in the 1960's was to serve the people outside of Toronto as a means to move people efficiently across the GTA without a car. Or vice versa, efficiently move people in Toronto to other places within the GTA (2WAD). Smart track essentially tries to relegate the GO trains to a metro for Toronto residents. Why not just expand Toronto's existing subway network to better serve these communities?

Andy Byford was very much aware of this when he worked for the TTC. He complained that smart track could "cannabalise" ridership from the TTC.

The only smart track station that makes sense IMO is Lansdowne. Giving riders on the Barrie line access to the west side of downtown Toronto and the Bloor line. Every other station is simply squeezing in another station in-between two existing ones. Unnecessarily increasing trip length.

Park Lawn and other Smart Track stations should be seen as "Tier 2" stations that should be bypassed by every other train.
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I mean I don't disagree, but building Park Lawn as a local station is still ultimately a good idea.
 
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