Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

[mistersg1]

It is both a fact and an opinion

FACT: ontario place was a very sucessful and loved attraction until it closed

FACT: Doug ford will skip over all city interference to get this built

Opinion: this redevelopment will be a better attraction than Ontario Place years ago

Opinion: Its a good thing doug ford will be skipping those nimby approvals. Tell me the difference between "put the waterpark somewhere else" and "put that subway entrance somewhere else"

Well, I wouldn’t exactly say “loved” by the time we reached the 20-aughts, they made some very stupid moves in that decade like getting rid of the beloved Children’s Village.

But many can speak of many fond memories in the 1980s and 1990s.

Anyone remember the Sea Trek ride, for a no name attraction, there was a good amount of theming there, much better than the similar styled Days of Thunder at then Paramount Canada’s Wonderland.


But even if nothing gets done on the West Island, or whatever happens happens, what exactly becomes of the centrepiece of Ontario Island, the five pods, the very reason why the islands exist in the first place.

I think bringing back the Nintendo Power Pod and Lego Land back to the pods as it was in the early 90s, could create a lot needed buzz to Ontario Place. But we all know that won’t happen.

 

[mistersg1]

Ontario Place closed due to ever declining attendance and an unwillingness by the then Liberal gov't to invest in both refreshing assets and adding anything new/different of substance or a major marketing push.



He is certainly capable of that, but whether he chooses to do so is conjecture at this point.

I’m not entirely sure if that’s the case, from what I remember hearing, Ontario Place was starting to rebound in the final years. Heck, they even built a new water ride that never actually opened at Ontario Place. They built it in the off-season before deciding to close.

At least that ride was moved to Canada’s Wonderland so it’s not a total loss, but still the fact that there was investment of a new top rate water slide from ProSlide means that they were still trying and hadn’t thrown in the towel on the place.

 

[A Torontonian Now]

Today:

 

[Parkdalian]

As an Ontarian who chipped his front tooth at Ontario Place as a child (the punching bags in the Children's Village were a dangerous place!), I feel nostalgia for the actual structures of Ontario Place - the pods and the Cinesphere - and no nostalgia for the parklands, which seem dreary and non-descript.

As a Parkdalian, I almost never visit the Ontario Place park - I go to Sunnyside or Marilyn Bell Park, both of which are closer and more attractive. Sunnyside also has amenities like washrooms and food options.

All that being said, I am not sure that a spa is the most exciting use of the land. Really, a spa? Like, how many conversations do you hear on a regular basis where someone is saying, "I'm going to bring my whole family to the spa!" From the website, it seems like a glorified swimming pool? Honestly, I'd prefer something dumb like a ferris wheel.

And I wouldn't trust Doug Ford with ... anything, really.

So, yeah, Ontario Place is not some odd sacred space that *must* not be touched without damaging our childhoods, but I'm also just ho-hum about what is proposed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Opinion: this redevelopment will be a better attraction than Ontario Place years ago

Opinion: Its a good thing doug ford will be skipping those nimby approvals. Tell me the difference between "put the waterpark somewhere else" and "put that subway entrance somewhere else"

We shall see if Therme even gets built (and if it does, even last as a going concern). What I do have an issue with is the government stepping in and spending umpteen million for an oversized parking garage to support basically private interests.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

We shall see if Therme even gets built (and if it does, even last as a going concern). What I do have an issue with is the government stepping in and spending umpteen million for an oversized parking garage to support basically private interests.

AoD

Just for clarity, between that, and servicing costs (sewer and water capacity primarily), we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Just for clarity, between that, and servicing costs (sewer and water capacity primarily), we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

And for clarity - it's not clear how much, if any, of these costs represent actual subsidies. The parking garage will generate large parking revenues to offset its costs (though perhaps not all of its costs), and I imagine that Therme will be paying at least something for its construction through its lease. It's just not clear exactly how much, if any, subsidy is involved here. At the very least, it's far less than the total capital construction cost involved. It's disingenuous to say that hundreds of millions of subsidies are involved here without further information.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And for clarity - it's not clear how much, if any, of these costs represent actual subsidies. The parking garage will generate large parking revenues to offset its costs (though perhaps not all of its costs), and I imagine that Therme will be paying at least something for its construction through its lease. It's just not clear exactly how much, if any, subsidy is involved here. At the very least, it's far less than the total capital construction cost involved. It's disingenuous to say that hundreds of millions of subsidies are involved here without further information.

May, or will generate large amounts of parking revenues? Perhaps the parking at the Ex is instructive.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

May, or will generate large amounts of parking revenues? Perhaps the parking at the Ex is instructive.

AoD

Therme will represent a year-round attraction with much more consistent demand than a seasonal fairgrounds yard reliant on sporting events and conventions for revenue. And we know this parking garage will be well used, particularly as The Ex moves towards removing more parking. It'll be popular for TFC, Therme, Budweiser Gardens, Conventions, for access to the waterfront, for access to the Science Centre, etc.

Again - I'm not sure of the revenue projections or subsidies involved here. All we know is that they will be much smaller than the total capital outlay involved. The extent of which is hard to say at this time, but it would be disingenuous imply that the entirety of the capital outlay is pure subsidy. In all likelyhood, if a subsidy is involved, it's a fraction of the total capital spend.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From link, date 2018.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Therme will represent a year-round attraction with much more consistent demand than a seasonal fairgrounds yard reliant on sporting events and conventions for revenue.

Again - I'm not sure of the revenue projections or subsidies involved here. All we know is that they will be much smaller than the total capital outlay involved. The extent of which is hard to say at this time, but it would be disingenuous imply that the entirety of the capital outlay is pure subsidy. In all likelyhood, if a subsidy is involved, it's a fraction of the total capital spend.

Claiming it is a "fraction" is meaningless - if there is such a strong business case for parking, let the private sector take care of it. This isn't even like parking at the GO, where there is a conceivable argument for funding it publicly as a public good.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

Claiming it is a "fraction" is meaningless - if there is such a strong business case for parking, let the private sector take care of it. This isn't even like parking at the GO, where there is a conceivable argument for funding it publicly as a public good.

AoD

I'm not making any such claim that the garage will be profitable - just that it's disingenuous to claim that the subsidy is equal to the total capital cost. Ultimately the province is the landlord here and given the shared parking nature, it makes sense they are the ones to deliver it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I'm not making any such claim - just that it's disingenuous to claim that the subsidy is equal to the total capital cost.

If you are arguing on the pro-side, show us the numbers if you have them? Claiming the possiblity of future revenues and a public subidy that is "much less" than capex without evidence is just fluff - and the amount of public subsidy for what is essentially a private good is the crux of the matter.

Also note - AFAIK the Ex Hotel Phase I & II didn't require public subsidy for their parking.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

If you are arguing on the pro-side, show us the numbers if you have them? Claiming the possiblity of future revenues and a public subidy that is "much less" than capex without evidence is just fluff - and the amount of public subsidy for what is essentially a private good is the crux of the matter.

Also note - AFAIK the Ex Hotel Phase I & II didn't require public subsidy for their parking.

AoD

I'm not trying to argue in either particular way - simply arguing we need to be reviewing this with the right facts. And it is far from a fact that the garage requires hundreds of millions of subsidies. We don't know anything about the financials of the garage. All we know is that it costs hundreds of millions, and an undetermined amount of that will be earned back from parking revenues and potential leasing costs from the private operators on the island.

Remember as well that Therme is not the only tenant of the garage. The Science Centre will be as well, as well as the other uses on the island including Budweiser Stage. The garage is a complex deal with unknown financing structures.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not trying to argue in either particular way - simply arguing we need to be reviewing this with the right facts. And it is far from a fact that the garage requires hundreds of millions of subsidies. We don't know anything about the financials of the garage. All we know is that it costs hundreds of millions, and an undetermined amount of that will be earned back from parking revenues and potential leasing costs from the private operators on the island.

Remember as well that Therme is not the only tenant of the garage. The Science Centre will be as well, as well as the other uses on the island including Budweiser Stage. The garage is a complex deal with unknown financing structures.

The onus falls on the proponent to prove their case, not the those defending the public good to disprove it.

We have a good idea of the gross costs and no indication as to who will pick up the tab.