Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

[W. K. Lis]

I'm worried! My thoughts are that Ford will do as little as possible and this will not turn out to be a major attraction for the city. It will probably end up being passive parkland that is used as an event space for festivals, much as it does now but probably on a larger scale. This is NOT what I want. I want the world's fair vibe the old Ontario Place had but on a much bigger scale, with top notch attractions and for it to operate year round with a large enclosed space for Winter use. It needs serious investment money and Ford is not the kind of guy who wants to invest in Ontario. Like most politicians, he only thinks short term.

This area already has passive parkland just east and west of this location. Ontario Place needs to be an urban park that has the potential to be much more than trees, grass and a beach. We already have these things and just a short walk from here. We need people with ambition running this place, not small minds like Doug Ford.

There are water parks around the world that operated in the snows of winter.

The pools at Caribbean Bay in South Korea maintain temperatures above 30°C so that guests never have to worry about feeling too chilly.

Parts are indoors...

From link.

But, of course, having "fun" in Toronto is frowned upon.

 

[thaivic]

Why the closed-door bid process ? Ontario is open for business allright , see Ontario Place - did Ontario-based outfits compete ?

No company would negotiate in public, Ford could have been more open about the process so that the public could know what was going on and who submitted bids but nobody would be negotiating in public. They should have had public consultations to set the parameters of what companies would be bidding on.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

So artificial hot springs at Ontario Place? As long as they provide the tea and the yukuta...

 

[Northern Light]

Star Article on all this:

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2021/07/24/toronto-waterfront-advocates-disappointed-as-source-says-premier-ford-ready-to-tap-austrian-la-and-montreal-companies-to-redevelop-ontario-place.

It's paywalled.

But Outline works.

 

[gibsonm]

I’m actually thrilled with the provincial government’s choices for redeveloping Ontario Place. I’ve been in Montreal this past week enjoying the high ropes courses and paddle boats right on the waterfront and thinking, Why don’t we have anything like this in Toronto? So sick of the bland condo walls that drive all planning and development in Toronto. There’s nothing fun or engaging happening. Ontario Place, the CNE, Hatbourfront, and the Port Lands should be bustling with activities. I don’t know why the Star is set on sabotaging this, because it’s coming from Ford? Tiresome.

 

[Northern Light]

I’m actually thrilled with the provincial government’s choices for redeveloping Ontario Place. I’ve been in Montreal this past week enjoying the high ropes courses and paddle boats right on the waterfront and thinking, Why don’t we have anything like this in Toronto? So sick of the bland condo walls that drive all planning and development in Toronto. There’s nothing fun or engaging happening. Ontario Place, the CNE, Hatbourfront, and the Port Lands should be bustling with activities. I don’t know why the Star is set on sabotaging this, because it’s coming from Ford? Tiresome.

Hold on.

Where are you getting this from?

1) We don't actually know what's planned for Ontario Place because the government has been highly secretive and not revealed anything.

2) We have speculation, which may be well informed, or could be trial balloons, about who is likely to get in on the action of redeveloping Ontario Place, but we don't know their plans, we have zero details.

3) No one was contemplating condos

4) Ontario Place was previously a very good experience in public hands, 40 years ago. It was left to rot and not given updates, and even made conscientiously worse in some respects in its latter years. It certainly would have, and would still benefit from less parking and parking taking up less area, in favour of more 'active' uses / greenspace etc.

5) No one is crapping on the bidders or any one thought as to what they may bring. People are irked by a process where a public asset is being re-thought, and in some respects, potentially 'sold off' (likely long term leases) to private companies with virtually no say by any member of the public.

6) Yes, The Star is anti-Ford and suspicious of his every move; as is virtually anyone with a 3-digit IQ. It's not as if this government has done a lot right. It's done a great deal wrong.
That should not be read as overlooking the many shortcomings of the governments that proceeded it; simply a statement of the obvious.

 

[gibsonm]

I guess I’ve become distrustful of endless consultation. It’s why the city lost Technodome in Downsview Park and Google Sidewalks. All we seem to get instead is windswept empty no man’s land parks and condos. It’s boring. I hope that plenty of private businesses get to actually have lively patio restaurants, cafes, and recreation that the public actually wants, and not just a few death camp modern art installations amongst the empty greenery.

 

[Lenser]

Put me down as one charmless death camp prisoner who's very happy Sidewalk Labs took a hike. Too many dystopian strings attached to their pretty picture.

 

[Northern Light]

I guess I’ve become distrustful of endless consultation. It’s why the city lost Technodome in Downsview Park

You lament the loss of 'Technodome'; a veritable work of fiction that didn't materialize anywhere else (though they supposedly considered Montreal and New York) because all variations were only possible with dozens of hectares of free land?
A proposal made by scions of a family whose chief enterprise 'Olympia and York' had just gone bankrupt with a debt-load of greater than 18B.
A proposal which if something other than fiction would have given Toronto an indoor ski hill in July?
Forgive me for not sharing your lamentations.

and Google Sidewalks.

Again, a proposal dependent on public land; without a single real architectural drawing to it, merely a fantasy render.
Which, in any event, if delivered, would have offered 24/7 surveillance of workers, residents and visitors to that area?
Thanks but no thanks.

All we seem to get instead is windswept empty no man’s land parks and condos. It’s boring.

In the case of Downsview Park, while, as yet, it has many shortcomings, we did gain over 290 acres of parkland.

It does feature a playground, an urban farm, an orchard, a man-made pond/lake, forests, meadows and sports fields.

(taken from https://en.downsviewpark.ca/nature/urban-forest

from: https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/05/downsview-park-toronto/

The balance of the land will soon be home to vast residential communities, employment lands, an on-going Farmer's Market, new retail and more.

I will take all of that over 'Technodome' every single time.

****

Quayside is looking very promising in its second incarnation, though we must await detailed bids.
But some of the world's best architectural firms are submitting proposals.
We already know it will feature an outstanding waterfront slip, a major cultural facility, a likely restaurant adjacent to the slip and probably outdoor swimming too.

Seems premature to suggest that will be some desolate wasteland.

****

Equally unfair to bury Downsview when the Park isn't even finished, and we still await the bulk of the area's development.

I hope that plenty of private businesses get to actually have lively patio restaurants, cafes, and recreation that the public actually wants, and not just a few death camp modern art installations amongst the empty greenery.

Where do you get this from? This statement is devoid of any logical connection to reality.
Quayside will be full of retail, recreation and more, and quite lively.
Downsview, as yet, has very few residents nearby, the park itself isn't finished, and the vegetation still immature.
There aren't restaurants yet, because the lands adjacent to the park haven't yet been redeveloped.

Really, dial back the hyperbole by at least an order of magnitude.

Also, work on making factual statements, supportable by evidence.

 

[gibsonm]

I appreciate your detailed response and I do think that some careful planning and public infrastructure is seeding both Downsview Park and Quayside. I’m especially excited about the rejuvenation of the Don. I will dial nothing back, however, because we’re so obsessed with and reliant on saviour condo development and spare, clinical park designs that we’re short on character and energy. That’s where Montreal has us beat. Harbourfront has improved and as it expands east through Sugar Beach, Sherbourne Common, and eventually to Villiers Island, the waterfront may really add up to more than the sum of its parts. Ontario Place is an opportunity to enliven this process to the west. Don’t get me wrong, I love the soulless concrete slabs and death camp art as much as the next guy, but can we please see some magic and animation along the waterfront, not just for existentialists but families and people of different ages and backgrounds?

 

[Northern Light]

I appreciate your detailed response and I do think that some careful planning and public infrastructure is seeding both Downsview Park and Quayside.

I'm glad; and yes.

I’m especially excited about the rejuvenation of the Don.

As you should be!

I will dial nothing back, however, because we’re so obsessed with and reliant on saviour condo development and spare, clinical park designs that we’re short on character and energy.

Tell me again how this relates to Ontario Place?

Harbourfront has improved and as it expands east through Sugar Beach, Sherbourne Common, and eventually to Villiers Island, the waterfront may really add up to more than the sum of its parts.

Yes.

Ontario Place is an opportunity to enliven this process to the west.

Sure, I don't think anyone was disagreeing with this. The discussion is about How we enliven it, and the process by which that is determined.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the soulless concrete slabs and

You can't find a forum more sympathetic to the need to improve architecture in this City, and especially as it pertains to condo construction.
That said, there was no condo construction proposed at Ontario Place, so this point is moot.

death camp art as much as the next guy, but can we please see some magic and animation along the waterfront, not just for existentialists but families and people of different ages and backgrounds?

Perhaps 'death camp' art is a bit much, and may be seen to be dubious taste to anyone whose family has experienced a real death camp?

Be that as it may; where is all this terribly depressing art that's dragging down are entire waterfront?
I mean, sure, that giant peanut/scrotum at the foot of Yonge is not to everyone's taste......... I wouldn't be sorry to lose it.........
But the area is nonetheless quite lively as pictures posted here show.

 

[gibsonm]

To enliven it? Some ideas: maze, high ropes, trampolines, paddle boats, parasailing, zip lining, Ferris wheel, train box container venders, fountains, water park, indoor/outdoor year-round beach, continuous waterfront promenade with retail, cafes, clubs, and restaurants along it, outdoor chess and games tables, co-working cafes and artists studios (glass-blowing, painting, sculpture, etc.), art gallery spaces, buskers permitted, small hotels, amusement park, public art installations, murals, LED light displays, fitness circuit stations, green roofs on buildings, etc.

 

[Northern Light]

To enliven it? Some ideas: maze, high ropes, trampolines, paddle boats, parasailing, zip lining, Ferris wheel, train box container venders, fountains, water park, indoor/outdoor year-round beach, continuous waterfront promenade with retail, cafes, clubs, and restaurants along it, outdoor chess and games tables, co-working cafes and artists audios (glass-blowing, painting, sculpture, etc.), art gallery spaces, buskers permitted, small hotels, amusement park, public art installations, murals, LED light displays, fitness circuit stations, green roofs on buildings, etc.

Right, we needn't nit pick all the ideas about, there is an agreement here ( at UT) , as in general with the public on the need to improve the space; if only because most of the existing amenity buildings are closed.

****

You are aware....?

Ontario Place had paddle boats, and a beach, and concerts, and magic shows, and a tech exhibition (Future Pod)

It had restaurants and a night club, it had bumper boats, an adventure playground for kids, mini-golf, a waterpark including little kids stuff and waterslides, and a log ride, among other items.

The Liberal gov't shut all that down, the Conservatives chose not to reverse that.

*****

No one is against bringing back any of those things, updating them, or adding some additional contemporary amusements.

What people want is a say in what those are; and what people have is a general suspicion the current government, having negotiated in secret, without any consultation or mandate
may go in a different direction, and with private interests who may charge admission to public lands............

 

[gibsonm]

Right, we needn't nit pick all the ideas about, there is an agreement here ( at UT) , as in general with the public on the need to improve the space; if only because most of the existing amenity buildings are closed.

****

You are aware....?

Ontario Place had paddle boats, and a beach, and concerts, and magic shows, and a tech exhibition (Future Pod)

It had restaurants and a night club, it had bumper boats, an adventure playground for kids, mini-golf, a waterpark including little kids stuff and waterslides, and a log ride, among other items.

The Liberal gov't shut all that down, the Conservatives chose not to reverse that.

*****

No one is against bringing back any of those things, updating them, or adding some additional contemporary amusements.

What people want is a say in what those are; and what people have is a general suspicion the current government, having negotiated in secret, without any consultation or mandate
may go in a different direction, and with private interests who may charge admission to public lands............

Well I think you’ve come to the heart of the matter on the issue of admission. Ontario Place can have paid attractions within it, but the grounds and most of the amenities should be accessible to the public. It should be integrated into the city and an extension of it rather than a segregated paid theme park. In my opinion this is the problem with the CNE and that whole section of the city. It’s an island because there’s no connection to a real neighborhood. I wouldn’t even be opposed to a little housing if it expanded the uses of that area and gave it 24 hour vibrancy — live, work, and play, but I can also see the primary importance of providing urban greenspace. The Exhibition used to be larger and ran all summer. It would be nice to see some of that empty asphalt on the CNE grounds and some of the surface parking at Ontario Place connected in one continuous park that runs from the lake to the Bentway and eventually the Rail Deck Park. Perhaps have a stretch of Lakeshore between the CNE and Ontario Place become an underpass so that a continuous linear park can run at grade from the lake to the north end of the CNE grounds. That would also connect the parks to the east and west of Ontario Place. Imagine walking along a park with gardens and programming all the way from the new Ontario Line station to the pods and geodesic dome on the water, and being able to walk or cycle east or west along the lake where the current parking lots sit. All of the recreational programming could run along a waterfront promenade and flow up through the CNE grounds, which would be enhanced by an Exhibition fair that might even become permanent like Chicago’s Navy Pier.

 

[Northern Light]

The Exhibition used to be larger and ran all summer.

No, it didn't.

Go back all the way to the 1950s, the CNE never had a run much greater than 3 weeks and was as little as 15 days some years.

It was never all-summer.