Obsidian
Active Member
People like you are why transit projects balloon in cost. you want the stations to fit personal sense of style regardless of the added cost and time.
This just means less transit for the rest of us, however.
Toronto Ontario Line: Osgoode Station | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | HDR
- Thread starter interchange42
- Start date
People like you are why transit projects balloon in cost. you want the stations to fit personal sense of style regardless of the added cost and time.
This just means less transit for the rest of us, however.
Northern Light
Superstar
That is completely untrue; and it's a dishonest attack on me as well.
You have consistently misrepresented what I have said; you have provided zero evidence in support of your positions, and you have made this personal as well for reasons I cannot fathom.
Lenser
Senior Member
Let's move beyond this impasse, shall we? I for one believe Toronto deserves more than unimaginative, cut-rate station boxes and other anemic approaches to civic design. Costs balloon, as they always do, because of built-in inefficiencies all along the process - and, dare I say it, a certain amount of systemic graft. Add to this problem the short-term desires of politicos to get re-elected rather than steadfastly carry out long-term visions which require steady and substantial funding - the optics of which tend not to be terribly sexy or generate positive press among the electorate. The political dimensions of these massive capital projects almost always cause interference and serve to tragically dilute the results.
Advocating for a bare-bones, starkly utilitarian approach to new public transit infrastructure reminds me of one of Toronto's early monikers: Toronto the dull.
Advocating for a bare-bones, starkly utilitarian approach to new public transit infrastructure reminds me of one of Toronto's early monikers: Toronto the dull.
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Obsidian
Active Member
Building barebones stations is how they do it in Europe and Asia and why cost are much lower than in North America, and it is why they build more transit projects as a result.
T3G
Senior Member
Where are these barebone stations, exactly?
Not in Berlin...
Rathaus Spandau (Berlin U-Bahn) - Wikipedia
Or in Prague...
Anděl (Prague Metro) - Wikipedia
Or in London...
Mornington Crescent tube station - Wikipedia
Or in Hong Kong...
Sunny Bay station - Wikipedia
Or in Beijing...
Or in Moscow...
Moscow Metro - Wikipedia
Lenser
Senior Member
I don't believe it's as simple as you make it out to be. I'm can't speak to how it's done internationally, particularly Europe, but it's also true that in certain Asian nations, all levels of government take a firmer hand in such projects. Here we prefer to commission study after study, sometimes for decades on end, before the first shovels go into the ground. The political will isn't nearly as strong. Again, I believe it's down to election cycles and a system where our leaders are ill-inclined to take big chances with the public purse.
Nor do I think that station boxes in and of themselves are the big reason why these projects tend to suck up tax dollars at a phenomenal rate. There's a lot of unfortunate bureaucracy to navigate at all points along the process. An opaque institution like Metrolinx doesn't help much, either.
Nor do I think that station boxes in and of themselves are the big reason why these projects tend to suck up tax dollars at a phenomenal rate. There's a lot of unfortunate bureaucracy to navigate at all points along the process. An opaque institution like Metrolinx doesn't help much, either.
Obsidian
Active Member
Where are these barebone stations, exactly?
Not in Berlin...
Rathaus Spandau (Berlin U-Bahn) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Or in Prague...
Or in London...
Mornington Crescent tube station - Wikipedia
Or in Hong Kong...
Sunny Bay station - Wikipedia
Or in Beijing...
Or in Moscow...
I am taking about current practice, all but 1 of these are older than 30 years.
No one is building stations like these anymore because if they did, they would have much smaller systems because all the cost would go into making stations looking pretty.
Stations built in Spain, China and India in the last 25 years are where you should be looking at to see how they build stations quickly and cheaply and as a result build massive systems in a fraction of time it would take here.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Might be worth looking into the history of Charles Tyson Yerkes, his architect Leslie Green, and the whole mission of UERL (outright fraud aside) before you make declarative statements like that...Where are these barebone stations, exactly?
Or in London...
Mornington Crescent tube station - Wikipedia
Hell, while we're at it, a lot of folks here could look into the excellent work of those who study this professionally: https://transitcosts.com/ (check the 'data' tab for the raw numbers).
Posting your vacation snaps or your late-night adventures on Wikipedia and going 'why not here', isn't an argument, it's bland, navel gazing.
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Northern Light
Superstar
Paris, France, Line 14 extension, opened 2020:
from: https://www.railtech.com/infrastruc...ro-line-14-extension-inaugurated/?gdpr=accept
Elizabeth Line Station, London, UK, opened 2022:
Taken from: https://uk.ramboll.com/projects/ruk/paddington-crossrail-station
Madrid subway extension opened 2015:
Taken from: https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/en/four-new-extensions-of-metro-madrid/
Rome Line C - 2018
Taken from: https://www.bbpigneto65.com/news-in-rome/metro-rome-line-c-next-opening/
Stockholm, Sweden Metro Expansion - opening 2026:
Taken from: https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/stockholm-metro-expansion/
generalcanada
Senior Member
im really curious if people will complain about the location when the ontario line opens in 2030.
The debate is settled we really should be moving on
The debate is settled we really should be moving on
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't think it is an "either-or" - I prefer standardized stations designs and limiting pavilion-styled entrances in general - but there is also a place for a higher design quality where it can be justified. Spadina is a case of where it is taken to extremes - but we don't want to end up with Yonge-line kind of cheap everywhere either.
AoD
T3G
Senior Member
Also adding a few examples from Prague:
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Prosek (Prague Metro) - Wikipedia
Střížkov (Prague Metro) - Wikipedia
Bořislavka (Prague Metro) - Wikipedia
Rajská zahrada (Prague Metro) - Wikipedia
T3G
Senior Member
Just because the location is "settled", doesn't mean that we can't discuss and criticize the decision making process that went into it.
And we're not even talking about that just now - we're discussing architecture. I personally think this discussion is much more interesting than waiting to see what new half baked render comes from Metrolinx and having to pretend that they did something of merit.
Thread closed. Enough for the moment. Go get a Chai Tea. Reopening after siesta.
42
EDIT: Reopened post-siesta, I assume there'll be a more reasonable, less attack-prone discussion following? If not, individual members who cannot keep their posts civil may find that they are taking more than a siesta.
42
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EDIT: Reopened post-siesta, I assume there'll be a more reasonable, less attack-prone discussion following? If not, individual members who cannot keep their posts civil may find that they are taking more than a siesta.
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Obsidian
Active Member
It comes down to do we spend hundreds of millions into making stations look pretty or spend those exact same funds into extending a line and having more total number of stations.
Which is more beneficial to the city and transit user?
The tradeoffs aren't pretty station vs barebones stations but rather pretty stations vs more transit.
This is why I am in favour of making stations as cheaply as possible because you will be able to get more of them in the long run.
Which is more beneficial to the city and transit user?
The tradeoffs aren't pretty station vs barebones stations but rather pretty stations vs more transit.
This is why I am in favour of making stations as cheaply as possible because you will be able to get more of them in the long run.