Toronto Ontario Line: Osgoode Station | ?m | 1s | Metrolinx | HDR

[Obsidian]

Not much sign of that so far!

there has been, the Ontario line is being built on the lessons learnt from the Crosstown line. namely they have learned to start constructions on the more complex items that will take the longest time first.

The crosstown line is being held up by the complexity of Eglinton stations which in hindsight should have started construction before the rest of the line.
also imagine they have learned that you never really know what's underground until you dig stuff up so plan accordingly.

 

[Northern Light]

the stations get watered down so that they can build all of them, if they didn't water down the stations, some of them would have to be cut.
What underground Eglinton station would you remove so the other stations look nicer?

Again, this is my point making stations nicer = fewer stations and therefore worst usability and vice versa (More stations = less nicer ones)
If we want the Ontario Line stations to be more grandiose, which ones will you want to sacrifice to make it possible.

Metrolinx should aim to cut all stations cost by 10% on all transit stations under construction in Toronto and give us a Cummer, Brimely and Cherry Stations

I think a better understanding of costs in station building is important here.

The total cost for all station finishes on the second avenue subway in NYC was ~5% of the overall project cost. (that number includes all finishes, but also included escalators and elevators among other things)

Of those, a variety of costs are fixed. Meaning, you're not going to not include lighting of some form, which has to be installed, you're not going to not have a finished floor treatment of some kind. I suppose you could go with completely bare concrete walls, but most people would oppose that, and the relative cost savings of going from medium-grade tile to a low-grade tile aren't that big, installation costs are fairly similar (for most, not all finishes)

The most you're really likely to save with a more spare design is 1% of total station budget; which is 2-4M for a typical underground subway station.

The cost of adding a single, deep-bore station to the network is about 250M
'
So if you cut the finishes budget to the bone at 10 stations, you have less than 20% of the cost of adding one station.

It is possible to build stations more cheaply, by building at-grade/elevated; or just much less deeply, that can costs by 1/3 or more; but also means a lot more construction disruption with cut and cover.
If you really wanted to save money though, that's the key; much less digging, soil removal; stations engineered with a lighter touch since they hold up less weight, one or more mezzanine levels removed resulting in fewer escalators and stairs and shorter elevator runs.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If we had Metrolink 20 years earlier, i feel so many more projects would have been built in the GTA by now.

Metrolinx came into being 16 years ago - and longer if you include the predecessor GTSB. The issue has never been entirely about what organization you have - but whether the government at the time is willing to pony up the dough.

AoD

 

[T3G]

Toronto doesn't know what wants though as we can see with the 180-degree change from Mayor Millers Transit City to Rob Fords, Subways Subways, Subways.
Metrolink will tell Toronto what it is getting and build it regardless of criticisms.

I like that we have an agency who is 100% focus on getting transit built and who will not get easily derailed from their projects by endless debates.
By their share existence it means we will continually have transit expansions and there would never a gap or more than a couple of years between active constructions somewhere since dozens of highly paid civil servants jobs will depend on keep the transit machine going.

If we had Metrolink 20 years earlier, i feel so many more projects would have been built in the GTA by now.

The worst thing about the presence of NIMBYs is that they have convinced a large amount of people that any kind of criticism must automatically make them a NIMBY.

Each criticism of a project must be taken on its own merits, or lack thereof. Metrolinx has some very large, very glaring issues in the way that they do things and their utter lack of respect for the communities in which their projects are supposed to run. Having a giant corporation accountable to no one is in no one's best interests.

 

[Obsidian]

Metrolinx came into being 16 years ago - and longer if you include the predecessor GTSB. The issue has never been entirely about what organization you have - but whether the government at the time is willing to pony up the dough.

AoD

I am aware when they started, that's why I said 20 years earlier.

The Greater Toronto Services Board only existed for 3 years and was never in the building transit game.
With Metrolinx we have an organization that must always be planning and building transit otherwise it ceases to exist.
Therefore, they (the highly paid and well-connected civil servants, who know the intimate details of how to get funding) are always in the ear of the current provincial government seeking funding for transit projects to maintain their existence and highly paid jobs.

To me, it's no coincidence that we are now experiencing the biggest transit expansion in Toronto's history only after Metrolinx was created,

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am aware when they started, that's why I said 20 years earlier.

The Greater Toronto Services Board only existed for 3 years and was never in the building transit game.
With Metrolinx we have an organization that must always be planning and building transit otherwise it ceases to exist.
Therefore, they (the highly paid and well-connected civil servants, who know the intimate details of how to get funding) are always in the ear of the current provincial government seeking funding for transit projects to maintain their existence and highly paid jobs.

To me, it's no coincidence that we are now experiencing the biggest transit expansion in Toronto's history only after Metrolinx was created,

The fact is - we had Metrolinx almost 2 decades earlier and we didn't get this massive transit expansion until the government of the day decided it is their priority (recently); government really doesn't function by the way of civil servants having the attention of the powers at the time and dictating what their priorities are so as to preserve their jobs. Honestly you really don't want the latter either because it is empire-building behaviour.

AoD

 

[Obsidian]

The fact is - we had Metrolinx almost 2 decades earlier and we didn't get this massive transit expansion until the government of the day decided it is their priority (recently); government really doesn't function by the way of civil servants having the attention of the powers at the time and dictating what their priorities are so as to preserve their jobs. Honestly you really don't want the latter either because it is empire-building behaviour.

AoD

Metrolink was created in 2006 but only in 2009 did it turn into its current form and it's been building and planning projects continually since then.

Metrolinx - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

the projects you are seeing in construction currently, were in various stages of planning upto 10 years ago.
Having a provincial agency constantly pushing transit projects is one of best things to have happened to this city.

The alternatives is no provincial agency advocating for transit projects and just a general public works department which is not focus on transit.

 

[kv1990]

Saw this today and made me think of the conversation on this thread

Narcity Canada on Instagram: "TTC stations can be a hit or a miss so Narcity’s Brooke Houghton took to the streets of Toronto to ask locals what station is their least favourite and why. Sketchiness and safety came up a lot! ⁠ ⁠ Disclaimer: This vide

1,565 likes, 43 comments - narcitycanada on March 2, 2023: "TTC stations can be a hit or a miss so Narcity’s Brooke Houghton took to the streets of Toronto to ask locals what station is their least favourite and why. Sketchiness and safety came up a lot! ⁠ ⁠ Disclaimer: This video contains...

www.instagram.com

Building simple utilitarian stations that take any joy out of visiting them will drive people away from transit

 

[Obsidian]

Saw this today and made me think of the conversation on this thread

Narcity Canada on Instagram: "TTC stations can be a hit or a miss so Narcity’s Brooke Houghton took to the streets of Toronto to ask locals what station is their least favourite and why. Sketchiness and safety came up a lot! ⁠ ⁠ Disclaimer: This vide

1,565 likes, 43 comments - narcitycanada on March 2, 2023: "TTC stations can be a hit or a miss so Narcity’s Brooke Houghton took to the streets of Toronto to ask locals what station is their least favourite and why. Sketchiness and safety came up a lot! ⁠ ⁠ Disclaimer: This video contains...

www.instagram.com

Building simple utilitarian stations that take any joy out of visiting them will drive people away from transit

what part of the transit project are they willing to sacrifice to get better looking stations then because the money has to come out from some part of the project.

 

[Tunafish13]

Theoretically, could people donate to the TTC to either get transit stations built, or to get the stations to be more architecturally pleasing? Like imagine if that $35 million that just went to the AGO went to the TTC/MX for a transit project? Or some crazy architectural reworking of dundas station?

 

[generalcanada]

Theoretically, could people donate to the TTC to either get transit stations built, or to get the stations to be more architecturally pleasing? Like imagine if that $35 million that just went to the AGO went to the TTC/MX for a transit project? Or some crazy architectural reworking of dundas station?

okay cool idea but hear me out here...what if, instead of depending on individuals who may choose not to donate, what if we took a super small portion of peoples incomes? and we can collectively decide what to spend it on?
yea you litterally just invented taxes LOL

 

[Pfloyd]

what part of the transit project are they willing to sacrifice to get better looking stations then because the money has to come out from some part of the project.

C'mon, only in a city like Toronto people have the mentality that good contemporary design and aesthetics are incompatible with building, in general (and building infrastructure in this case). As diverse and international as this city is, it seems like a lot of people don't travel enough to see what's being built around the world, especially in countries and cities that value good architecture and public realm. I think we deserve way better, and cannot settle for 1960' public bathroom aesthetics in our subway stations.

 

[Towered]

I recall that there were plans to renovate St. Patrick and St. Andrew stations more than a decade ago along the lines of Museum to make them more unique and "fancy" - where did those projects ever go?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I recall that there were plans to renovate St. Patrick and St. Andrew stations more than a decade ago along the lines of Museum to make them more unique and "fancy" - where did those projects ever go?

Considering how Museum turned out - thankfully nowhere. We got rundown chic instead though, where even enameled cladding is too much - and went straight to the unitized tube segments look.

AoD

 

[Towered]

Considering how Museum turned out - thankfully nowhere. We got rundown chic instead though, where even enameled cladding is too much - and went straight to the unitized tube segments look.

AoD

Hey now, get with the times - it's "post-apocalyptic chic".