Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[gweed123]

Oh wait, why can't we use "South"? I don't know the naming rules. Maybe Lower Broadview could work?

The TTC only uses "East" and "West" relative to Yonge, but both the TTC and Metrolinx naming policies don't support the use of "North" and "South", since there's no central E-W axis in Toronto.

And though I agree East Harbour isn't organic (the name is only a few years old, it's not on the harbour, nor touching any water) - I do see it as fairly commercialized. Perhaps on par with CityPlace.

Well, it is right next to the Don River, which empties into the eastern end of Toronto Harbour only a few hundred metres southwest of there.

I believe TTC didn't want VMC for similar reasons, also it's stupidly long and weird.

I think the objection to VMC was mainly the length of the name, and the useless middle descriptor.

I guess if the GO station is named East Harbour, which realistically will be built first, it'd probably be best to use that name as well.

As long as it isn't something like Great Gulf East Harbour, I'm fine with it. And yes, as long as each service in the complex shares the same name, it'll be ok.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From the DRL article on the home page:

This RFP marks a substantial step forward in the detailed design work for the Relief Line, which is tentatively scheduled to begin construction in 2025
​

Can someone remind us why it’s going to take until 2025 for construction to start? The Crosstown LRT, which is of similar scope, took only four years to go from proposal to construction. Why is it taking the DRL 11 years to do the same?

Also, what’s the status on the DRL TPAP? It was scheduled to begin in late 2017

 

[ksun]

Montreal Metro
System length 69.2 km

Toronto Subway
System length 68.3 km

Its barely longer. In December Toronto's system will be longer by 7km with the opening of the Spadina Extension.

Their ridership is more, but barely so.

Montreal Metro
Annual ridership 356,096,000

Toronto Subway
Annual ridership 302,806,300

yea, and Montreal has 2/3 of Toronto's population.

 

[Avenue]

I'm still not getting why this line isn't under King Street given that the overwhelming majority of density happens south of King.

 

[M II A II R II K]

There’s ScamTrack for King.

 

[innsertnamehere]

yea, and Montreal has 2/3 of Toronto's population.

It's built form is also much less suburban. It's inner city population is probably the same or larger. 3/4 of the population lives in the "city" on the Island of Montreal, while Toronto only has half of it's population living in the central municipality. Roughly 3 million each.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And only the old city of Toronto is actually urban. The rest is suburban.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And only the old city of Toronto is actually urban. The rest is suburban.

FWIW - post-war suburban - we have a number of streetcar suburbs afterall.

AoD

 

[WislaHD]

And only the old city of Toronto is actually urban. The rest is suburban.

Which does not mean that the suburban parts do not have pockets of densities, thanks to our 1960s and 1970s apartment rental tower blocks.

Remember, our suburban bus routes actually have a lot of ridership and is what feeds the Yonge subway its congestion even before it reaches the old city of Toronto, and the cause is definitely not the single-detached homes on cul-de-sacs of Scarborough and North York.

It is also why Relief Line North to Sheppard should be a huge priority.

 

[jcam]

Can someone remind us why it’s going to take until 2025 for construction to start? The Crosstown LRT, which is of similar scope, took only four years to go from proposal to construction. Why is it taking the DRL 11 years to do the same?

Pretty sure the City has some major debt ceiling issues in 2019-2021 doesn't it? Might preclude taking something on this early. Also likely phasing of funds from other orders of governments...Metrolinx has probably parsed out its money in the nearer term for Hamilton and Hurontario.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From the DRL article on the home page:

This RFP marks a substantial step forward in the detailed design work for the Relief Line, which is tentatively scheduled to begin construction in 2025
​

Can someone remind us why it’s going to take until 2025 for construction to start? The Crosstown LRT, which is of similar scope, took only four years to go from proposal to construction. Why is it taking the DRL 11 years to do the same?

Also, what’s the status on the DRL TPAP? It was scheduled to begin in late 2017

Pretty sure the City has some major debt ceiling issues in 2019-2021 doesn't it? Might preclude taking something on this early. Also likely phasing of funds from other orders of governments...Metrolinx has probably parsed out its money in the nearer term for Hamilton and Hurontario.

There have been no funding commitments from any levels of government, so at this point we can't discuss how funding will affect scheduling, because we don't know when those funds will materialize. So something else must be pushing the DRL to a 2025 start.

After the TPAP is completed in six months (assuming the information on reliefline.ca is correct) the project should be able to enter design phase. I don't understand how it will take seven years of design for the project to be able to enter construction, especially when the latter phases of design and the beginning of construction can happen concurrently.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There have been no funding commitments from any levels of government, so at this point we can't discuss how funding will affect scheduling, because we don't know when those funds will materialize. So something else must be pushing the DRL to a 2025 start.

After the TPAP is completed in six months (assuming the information on reliefline.ca is correct) the project should be able to enter design phase. I don't understand how it will take seven years of design for the project to be able to enter construction, especially when the latter phases of design and the beginning of construction can happen concurrently.

For reference, the Crosstown began construction after tunnel design had completed, and while design work for stations and other facilities were still far from completion. Design for DRL tunnel is set to begin very soon, with the RFP for tunnel design closing December 15th, 2017.

 

[MisterF]

Citing Toronto's built form for its inferior subway system is, frankly, just another excuse. Toronto's subway lines are bursting at the seams, especially line 1. The DRL should have been built long ago and our system should be significantly larger than Montreal's. I question how much more urban the built form in Montreal is anyway. True, Toronto's building stock is more house-oriented, but we have a lot more high rises as well. I recall seeing numbers years ago showing central area density, which was slightly higher in Montreal (I don't have any sources - just going by memory). But growth in central Toronto has been on a breakneck pace for the better part of 20 years.

Toronto's smaller subway system and lower ridership aren't because of any difference in built form, it's because our governments have been awful at building mass transit.

 

[aquateam]

I'm still not getting why this line isn't under King Street given that the overwhelming majority of density happens south of King.

Because King is too close to SmartTrack. And also because City Planning wanted a station at the "psychological heart" of Toronto at Nathan Philips Square, and because Queen served more priority neighbourhoods like Moss/Regent Park. Also it avoided the additional cost of deep tunneling at Unilever.

But then they decided that serving Unilever was important and still stayed with Queen street.

Most questionable transit decisions (DRL on Queen, no grade-separations on Eglinton west/east, Waterfront funicular, slow Queen's Quay streetcar, the confusing King street pilot, etc.) can be directly traced to City Planning.

It's built form is also much less suburban. It's inner city population is probably the same or larger. 3/4 of the population lives in the "city" on the Island of Montreal, while Toronto only has half of it's population living in the central municipality. Roughly 3 million each.

The Island of Montreal is like the megacity of Toronto, almost the same area, and large swathes of it are suburban. The "City" of Montreal is a big mix, though, you have boroughs like Pierrefonds-Roxborough which are entirely suburban compared to separate cities on the island like Westmount, which is the second densest municipality in Canada.

Island of Montreal:
area 499.2 km2
population: 1,942,044
density: 3 890

Municipality of Toronto:
area: 630.21 km2
population: 2,731,571
density: 4 334

But aggregating over large areas is a very bad predictor of transit ridership, the important thing is how dense populations (and especially jobs!) are to rapid transit lines. Vancouver has been very smart about planning density near stations. Montreal has the big advantage that it doesn't have a giant "yellow belt" of zoned single family housing that Toronto does.

 

[WislaHD]

Most questionable transit decisions (DRL on Queen, no grade-separations on Eglinton west/east, Waterfront funicular, slow Queen's Quay streetcar, the confusing King street pilot, etc.) can be directly traced to City Planning.

I never thought I would be saying this, but I am beginning to wish the engineers were back in charge of transit planning, and merely hired more planners onto their transit design teams.