Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Kitsune]

So metrolinx is again cutting images out of there design document to push something? If you look at the top of the image it appears there is cut off text .. and the comments kinda look like they might of been added after the image was cut ouf of whatever document it was produced out of. Further .. why does the building need to be that big when the South Entrance Building is a whole lot smaller. Also .. the relief line .. with platforms twice as long .. never required this building. Is this building required because metrolinx is going with half sized platforms with a 90 second headway ?

Also... if Metrolinx held proper Public Information Centre's showing there design alternatives etc etc .. we prolly would not have this issue. Remember the Relief Line had a two year delay so they could shift it from under Pape to under Carlaw south of the Rail Corridor. Gosh ... if Metrolinx asserted themselves back then then we would prolly be well underway buliding the Relief Line .

 

[Northern Light]

I have to say, I fundamentally disagree with entire set of design choices, looking a the drawing above. I would describe it as the product of sub-par designers, with a very lazy process.

I say this completely apart from any impact on Osgoode. Its literally very bad design. They've gone for two profoundly over-built exits, that offer poor integration to the City and to Line 1, all while managing to introduce an excessive number of levels into the design which needlessly drives up cost and inconvenience.

I'm being only slightly sarcastic in suggesting that if this is the level of thought put into the entire project, perhaps we should cancel it, and send the bill to the Provincial Cabinet, the Metrolinx Executive and the lobbyists
who sought to nix a perfectly viable and far-better designed Relief Line, at the cost of several years delay and tens of millions of $$ (if not more) in sunk costs that were flushed down the toilet.

Wow is this bad. The R/L had the station correctly sited further east, which avoided this problem entirely. Of course, to shift it back, changes what's going on at Queen/Yonge as well.

Properly fixing this mess could cost a great deal in $ and time, and if we must, sobeit, but there really should be civil cost recovery from those responsible for the dumb decisions. (yes, I know this won't happen, but it should)

 

[Ward8]

Seems from that image like there would be no barrier to putting the entrance building on university as suggested in the park proposal. Maybe an elevator shaft would have to be in Osgoode, but the main entrance could be in the better location. It would still require that the trees are removed, but the park space would be maintained. You'd also be guaranteed an eventual park along university.

I'm being only slightly sarcastic in suggesting that if this is the level of thought put into the entire project, perhaps we should cancel it, and send the bill to the Provincial Cabinet, the Metrolinx Executive and the lobbyists
who sought to nix perfectly viable and far-better designed Relief Line, at the cost of several years delay and tens of millions of $$ (if not more) in sunk costs that were flushed down the toilet.

I agree that the older interchange station designs are better in terms of urban integration, but the entirety of the project is a significant improvement over the original DRL design.

 

[LemonCondo]

The Relief Line was not a perfect idea. Dead-ending a subway line underground on both of its ends is not ideal. The Ontario Line is easier to expand later if you don't have to build a tunnel portal. And of course connecting to Line 5 is very important.

 

[Northern Light]

The Relief Line was not a perfect idea.

No idea is.

Dead-ending a subway line underground on both of its ends is not ideal.

The intent was always to go further north, as was actively being studied.

The Ontario Line is easier to expand later if you don't have to build a tunnel portal.

The Ontario Line's extensions on both the west and the north vs the Relief Line are still underground. (ie north of Danforth and west of Osgoode)

It is likely that a decision to proceed north would have been taken for the R/L during the construction phase (which was done with Line 2, which was approved to go further east and west during the initial construction work) which would render this issue moot.

Going north is the main priority. The choice to go west to Spadina or even Bathurst is fair; though I continue to feel the connection at Exhibition is the wrong route strategy. However, it is fair to say there was no plan to take the R/L west in the near-term and in this regard the O/L is an improvement, but that must be weighed against the many ways in which the O/L is not an improvement.

Many of the things people rave about w/the O/L either would have been the case w/the R/L or could easily have been (Platform Edge Doors, double elevators)

But lets not re-litigate the entire thing again shall we.

Instead, lets simply say, Mx has shown a poor understanding of design on multiple projects, including but not limited to the O/L.

Its execution (on time, on budget) of the Crosstown is now egregious. (yes, the TTC was bad on TYSSE as well; this will likely be worse in terms of slippage); and the O/L's costs now appear to be spiking out of control as well. (completely irrespective of any changes to Osgoode Station's design).

Finally, their PR/communication, across the board on a host of projects rates as nothing less than abysmal.

There have been more outright lies told than I recall in ages; consultations are a complete farce. (For the record, I went to one and found it run entirely be PR Staff (non-technical) who could not or would not answer a single, straight-forward, polite question. Not one.

The entire C-suite team at Mx should be sacked for cause; but yes, lets get rid of Rick Leary over at TTC while we're at it).

 

[Allandale25]

Star article posted. Not sure if there are any new details that are of interest to people.

Judge grants interim injunction to halt Metrolinx’s tree removal at Osgoode Hall

The injunction, in effect until Feb. 10, prevents the transit agency from felling trees it says must be cleared for station work on the Ontario Line.

www.thestar.com

 

[DirectionNorth]

The entire C-suite team at Mx should be sacked for cause; but yes, lets get rid of Rick Leary over at TTC while we're at it).

Let's sack John Tory and Doug Ford while we're at it too, shall we???

Properly fixing this mess could cost a great deal in $ and time, and if we must, sobeit, but there really should be civil cost recovery from those responsible for the dumb decisions. (yes, I know this won't happen, but it should)

Yes, and send them the bill to re-re-design the line? Or shall we send the bill to the NIMBYs who have held up this project for so long?

I cannot believe that you are advocating to re-cancel the line, then spend a decade re-re-designing it. Don't tell me that we can design it quickly, it is not as if you don't know how Toronto works.

Not one of you has justified why there can't be a walk down sidewalk entrance to the station. The insistence on shoving such a large structure where there isn't room for it stinks of someone trying to push through a pet project to stroke their ego.

The building rendered is hardly like the palaces of the TYSSE, it is a fairly compact building. Cutting down five trees is worth the protection for mechanical parts in the escalators, elevators, or rider comfort, etc.

 

[crs1026]

Have we found a link to the written reasons? (still looking)

Its execution (on time, on budget) of the Crosstown is now egregious. (yes, the TTC was bad on TYSSE as well; this will likely be worse in terms of slippage); and the O/L's costs now appear to be spiking out of control as well. (completely irrespective of any changes to Osgoode Station's design).

Finally, their PR/communication, across the board on a host of projects rates as nothing less than abysmal.

The mantra “On time, on budget” has taken on a meaning that it should never have had. With such complex projects, it is inevitable that some snags will come up. These may well exceed whatever contingency has been allowed at the outset.

Clearly, politicians want to brag and report the mantra. The solution has been to simply refuse to offer any concrete plan details so the public, the media, and the opposition have no grounds to point fingers. And it means that as is the case here, the desire to get cleanly out of the starting gate leads to a “damn the torpedos” attitude, where taking the time to explain and give the public soak time would avoid a lot of the pushback.

When UP Express was built, it was obvious that the UP component of the larger Georgetown South project had slipped timewise and budgetwise. The solution was simply to shift unfinished UP scope to GTS, which simply stopped doing work when the overall budget envelope reached its limit. That’s one reason why we still don’t have night/weekend service to Mount Pleasant…. enough time had to elapse before the remainder of the work could be packaged as “Phase II” without admitting that ML is playing catchup on unfinished work from the first project. Wynne’s declaration of “On time, On Budget” was a joke.

I’m not defending performance on either Crosstown or TYSSE, but clearly the desire for an unblemished narrative drove egregious subterfuge in both cases.

Let’s see….. we have Davenport Diamond, Smalls Creek, Osgoode Hall, Humber Flats, Thorncliffe Park……these people have quite the track record in dealing with controversy. Would I vote for a candidate that promised to fire the ML Board and C suite?

Yep.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

Have we found a link to the written reasons? (still looking)



The mantra “On time, on budget” has taken on a meaning that it should never have had. With such complex projects, it is inevitable that some snags will come up. These may well exceed whatever contingency has been allowed at the outset.

Clearly, politicians want to brag and report the mantra. The solution has been to simply refuse to offer any concrete plan details so the public, the media, and the opposition have no grounds to point fingers. And it means that as is the case here, the desire to get cleanly out of the starting gate leads to a “damn the torpedos” attitude, where taking the time to explain and give the public soak time would avoid a lot of the pushback.

When UP Express was built, it was obvious that the UP component of the larger Georgetown South project had slipped timewise and budgetwise. The solution was simply to shift unfinished UP scope to GTS, which simply stopped doing work when the overall budget envelope reached its limit. That’s one reason why we still don’t have night/weekend service to Mount Pleasant…. enough time had to elapse before the remainder of the work could be packaged as “Phase II” without admitting that ML is playing catchup on unfinished work from the first project. Wynne’s declaration of “On time, On Budget” was a joke.

I’m not defending performance on either Crosstown or TYSSE, but clearly the desire for an unblemished narrative drove egregious subterfuge in both cases.

Let’s see….. we have Davenport Diamond, Smalls Creek, Osgoode Hall, Humber Flats, Thorncliffe Park……these people have quite the track record in dealing with controversy. Would I vote for a candidate that promised to fire the ML Board and C suite?

Yep.

- Paul

Im not a lawyer but iirc "temporary injunctions are almost always given when ANY kind of permanent "damages" MIGHT happen. The time to prove them is later on during a trial.

the judge said its pretty much only to give the LSO time to review the report

Judge grants interim injunction to halt Metrolinx’s tree removal at Osgoode Hall

The injunction, in effect until Feb. 10, prevents the transit agency from felling trees it says must be cleared for station work on the Ontario Line.

www.thestar.com

 

[picard102]

If you are willing to delay to save the trees you have to be prepared to spend dozens of millions (of tax payer $) for station redesign and risk having the ol delayed for several years

This is already going to cost a ton and take forever. Concerns about cost and timelines are unrealistic.

 

[kyler]

Ah, well there you have it! No further discussion needed. Open and shut case. Guess we'll pack our things and go.

Thank you for that illuminating insight!

You're welcome! Because all the arguments to protect these 5 trees are asinine. It really is easy.

 

[kyler]

Every. Single. Suggestion. in this thread as an alternative to protect these 5 trees isn't feasible for any number of reasons. It really is wild to see this community lose it's shit over these trees.

Yes I know it isn't about the trees.

Metrolinx sucks. Agreed.

Anything related to Doug Ford sucks and should be cancelled. Agreed.

It's all so secretive. Agreed.

University Avenue should go on a major road diet. Agreed.

None of that is relevant anymore because it's FIVE TREES to allow a generational subway line to be built across the city.

 

[kyler]

I just realized why this thread is driving me mad. Y'all are acting like Trump Republicans. Heads buried in the sand when every other option is rejected, saying that you were right all along and being completely unwilling to change your opinion. Get on board, salvation is not that far away! Leave that 'Save the Trees' FB group you're all in and look into the light.

 

[rbt]

Every. Single. Suggestion. in this thread as an alternative to protect these 5 trees isn't feasible for any number of reasons. It really is wild to see this community lose it's shit over these trees.

You better tell Metrolinx that, because they intend to use at least one of those alternatives at Queen and Yonge as they've opted not to demolish a corner.

I don't care for the Osgoode grounds (found the fence hostile in 2000 when I worked nearby, still dislike it); but corner cutting during planning by Metrolinx's isn't Osgoode's problem.

Frankly, it's nice to see Metrolinx eat mud. I hate that they killed a TTC Open Payment tender which would have allowed credit card and mobile tapping before London by saying their crappy stored-value card (Presto) could do it too then having government thugs (Liberals) make threats to force TTC to use it. 15 years later and they're still trying to polish that cut-corner.

There are many great people at Metrolinx but something in their internal processes or direction from above keeps turning out poorly. They keep ending up in court for things they shouldn't be in court for (the Bombardier battles being the best example).

Making an omelette requires breaking a few eggs but Metrolinx is throwing the shells and even the carton into the omelette mix and wondering why people get angry.

 

[Northern Light]

Let's sack John Tory and Doug Ford while we're at it too, shall we???

Yes, please.

Yes, and send them the bill to re-re-design the line?

Sure, absolutely.

Or shall we send the bill to the NIMBYs who have held up this project for so long?

Which Nimbys?; don't get me wrong, there were some; but I think we'd have to go case by case.

I cannot believe that you are advocating to re-cancel the line, then spend a decade re-re-designing it. Don't tell me that we can design it quickly, it is not as if you don't know how Toronto works.

I do believe I said my tongue was in my cheek; though I am somewhat exhausted by ineptness of the proponents here (and that's certainly not the first project or proponent of which that can be said, its merely the latest, and biggest)

The building rendered is hardly like the palaces of the TYSSE, it is a fairly compact building. Cutting down five trees is worth the protection for mechanical parts in the escalators, elevators, or rider comfort, etc.

A surviving Ash Tree (given EAB) would likely be an endangered species; but that said, I'm open to that argument; I'm actually every bit if not more as non-plussed by removing the fence.