Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[MrGoose]

And you with the Strawman.

Its not a strawman if I'm directly quoting you as emphasizing the importance of these trees in particular.

The trees at Osgoode hall are more important than elsewhere. There are like 4 mature trees downtown.

If it wasn't those trees at Osgoode hall, it'd be those mature trees at Campbell House or those mature trees in Moss park or those mature trees in Jimmy Simpson etc etc.

 

[kotsy]

Work to cut down the trees has commenced at Osgoode Hall

Old Toronto Series on Instagram: "The 200 year old trees at Osgoode Hall lost the @metrolinx battle. A sad result."

3,842 likes, 689 comments - oldtoronto on February 4, 2023: "The 200 year old trees at Osgoode Hall lost the @metrolinx battle. A sad result.".

www.instagram.com

 

[Northern Light]

Work to cut down the trees has commenced at Osgoode Hall

Old Toronto Series on Instagram: "The 200 year old trees at Osgoode Hall lost the @metrolinx battle. A sad result."

3,842 likes, 689 comments - oldtoronto on February 4, 2023: "The 200 year old trees at Osgoode Hall lost the @metrolinx battle. A sad result.".

www.instagram.com

You have to read up Kotsy. The cutting was stopped, and an injunction issued. That post is 24 hours + out of date.

That's what all the chatter over the last pages has been about.

 

[Ward8]

Its not a strawman if I'm directly quoting you as emphasizing the importance of these trees in particular.

No, you definitely don't seem to understand my position.

1) These trees are only different in that there is a lack of park space downtown. So removing park space here has a more significant impact than in other places.
2) These trees aren't special, but different from other locations because there appears to be an alternative option available. Trouble is, we as the public, don't understand our options.

I'm fully supportive of tree removal in other places. I think that the circumstances are different at this location, not that there is special juju in these trees (which is how you represented what I said.)

 

[crs1026]

^The revelation about the age of the trees is a bit of a surprise development, I must admit. I had understood from earlier press reports (which admittedly I didn't fact check, but they were "credible" sources and not just BlogTO) that the trees were traceable back to the days of using those grounds as a cow pasture, and having survived the Great Toronto Fire of 1906.

I come back to - if there were a large building on each of the four corners, none of them would come down and ML's engineers would find a solution within the roadway space. Why do we value buildings more than green space?

Maybe some people see Osgoode Hall as just another stretch of grass with an old building and an annoying fence. I see it as part of the open space precinct which includes Nathan Phillips Square and flows onto the breadth of University itself. If we mess with that, we are messing with one of the few barely natural spaces in an increasingly cold and sterile and cavernous downtown. The 200 years of cultivating and protecting that breathing space has value and having a transit project delayed even by a year or two to find a better solution does not override that 200 years of effort.

ML is also ravaging the First Parliament site, which has much less original artifacts, admittedly. There is also the impact on lesser but valuable buildings along Queen west and down to King. Plus Moss Park. And east of the Don. We are sacrificing an awful lot just for one subway.

The wonderful thing about municipal government is that it is where all the various competing policies and agendas and strategies collide. We want sidewalks, and trees, and transit, and a bunch of other things. The whole point of making municipal government work is so that we find accommodations and compromises and win-win solutions. Giving one provincial agenda the "bowers" and trumping all those other agendas is not good city building.... even if it's for transit.

- Paul

 

[kotsy]

You have to read up Kotsy. The cutting was stopped, and an injunction issued. That post is 24 hours + out of date.

That's what all the chatter over the last pages has been about.

My apologies. I thought they went around the injunction and did a poor job of skimming the last handful of pages.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Out of curiosity, how many of Osgoode Hall's trees are actually native trees? How many are non-native or weed trees?

 

[NoahB]

Osgood Hall's greenspace is enclosed with metal bars with spikes with gates that look closed. I have been living in the GTA for a decade and only after the OL did I realize that this space is actually open to the public. I wonder how many people walking by had the same impression seeing how it's sparsely used.
I liked the trees but the park always felt hostile to visitors. (but this is anecdotal to me) A station taking a relatively small portion is not necessarily a bad thing.

Though in an ideal world, a teleporter would take you from the sidewalk without taking space on the sidewalk or cutting down some trees.

 

[Northern Light]

Out of curiosity, how many of Osgoode Hall's trees are actually native trees? How many are non-native or weed trees?

Based on the posts above, the grounds include a mix of native and non-native species.

The largest, oldest tree, in the south-west corner (one of the ones that Mx would cut down is a century-old Ash tree, that's native).

That tree is obviously threatened by Emerald Ash Borer, for which there is a vaccination, but its expensive ~$300 per tree per dose and needs to be re-done about every three years.

****

Additional species mentioned were Honey-Locust (near-native), Linden (could be native or non-native, there's European Linden and North American Basswood (Which is a Linden) and Crabapple which could be native as there are native crab apple species; however, again, there are also non-native ones.

The post didn't list the species names. (latin) which allows for distinguishing.

 

[T3G]

Good catch


I find it hilarious that the court documents show that the trees on site were planted a decade after discussions on the Queen Subway started. (granddaddy plan of the OL)
These are not 200yo magical trees. They are not more special than the trees planted after the Yonge Subway cut and the cover was done. The Law Society itself says most of the trees are only as old as the Bloor Line 2. No tree has ever been planted ever again since then.

I personally feel more vindicated as this develops.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not one of you has justified why there can't be a walk down sidewalk entrance to the station. The insistence on shoving such a large structure where there isn't room for it stinks of someone trying to push through a pet project to stroke their ego.

 

[ARG1]

Not one of you has justified why there can't be a walk down sidewalk entrance to the station. The insistence on shoving such a large structure where there isn't room for it stinks of someone trying to push through a pet project to stroke their ego.

Because with a "large" (it's not large it's actually fairly minimal) structure you get an indoor space where you can wait for the next streetcar. It's all about improving the transit rider experience. Not to mention, I doubt with modern safety standards a sidewalk entrance would fly. Looking at the entrance on the SouthWest of the intersection, the amount of sidewalk left is basically non-existant. Even if there wasn't a building involved, I'm pretty sure Metrolinx would try to widen the sidewalk and encroach on part of the Osgoode Hall land to build the staircase (The other option is to close a lane on Queen, which sounds like a horrible idea on many fronts).

 

[leopetr]

The other option is to close a lane on Queen, which sounds like a horrible idea

The other other option is to close a lane or three on University, which was proposed by Public Work in 2020

Globe editorial: How Toronto can turn University Avenue into Canada’s most innovative park

Done right, it would be Toronto’s La Rambla. Price tag? An estimated $230-million. The ambition is sizeable, but the cost is not

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[kalis0490]

If one wants to save these trees you must be content with the karma of that action (good and bad). If you are willing to delay to save the trees you have to be prepared to spend dozens of millions (of tax payer $) for station redesign and risk having the ol delayed for several years

 

[Aplus23]

Build a small, non intrusive sidewalk entrance like they already have for Osgoode station on University Avenue.

Or build a slightly larger entrance on the south side of Queen, where there is more space. There is always a solution.

The proposed entrance is far, far too big for downtown and wholly unnecessary.

View attachment 453986

How on earth can anyone really dispute or argue that this picture is some how intrusive? I see plenty of trees in that picture.

I'm all for protecting and planting trees trust me, but arguing about trees when trying to build a subway is a little backwards and possibly obnoxious no?

 

[NoahB]

The insistence on shoving such a large structure where there isn't room for it stinks of someone trying to push through a pet project to stroke their ego.

There is room at the NE corner of Osgoode and Queen. The detailed locations of the stations are built by engineers. Pretending that the details are a stroke of some politician's ego ignores the reality of building infrastructure. Do you blame Tory for the model of urinals in Toronto parks? Do you blame Wynne for the tile color in the Crosstown stations?

The other other option is to close a lane or three on University, which was proposed by Public Work in 2020

Globe editorial: How Toronto can turn University Avenue into Canada’s most innovative park

Done right, it would be Toronto’s La Rambla. Price tag? An estimated $230-million. The ambition is sizeable, but the cost is not

www.theglobeandmail.com

If you read the report they are worried about Line 1 ventilation infrastructure under Osgoode. That made it less ideal to do. I prefer the entrance be made at University Park as part of the proposal. But that has been looked at and ruled as unfavorable in the report commissioned by the city.

Not one of you has justified why there can't be a walk down sidewalk entrance to the station. The insistence on shoving such a large structure where there isn't room for it stinks of someone trying to push through a pet project to stroke their ego.

Have you looked at the width of the sidewalk at that intersection? Thanks to the big pointy fence surrounding Osgoode Hall my armchair says there is no space. (Unless they build University Park at the same time, which the City doesn't plan to do. Talk to your local councilor to expedite that plan)
The building has redundant elevators/escalators, waiting/circulation areas, and possibly other infrastructure. This is building things to a modern standard. It's not the 1950s anymore with a single narrow staircase down from the sidewalk.

Look at this image:

The amount of underground infrastructure they plan to build REQUIRES them to use that amount of space. They will not be able to build such a structure by opening a shaft the size of a sidewalk.

T3G, I at least bother to read the available materials.