Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

salsa said:
Pape Ave residents have started a petition asking the mayor to reconsider an alignment that doesn't run below their street. The petition needs a whopping 100 signatures, as if that will make any difference.
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Why not? Couldn't have been much difference in the number of signatures that got us a stupid Leslie stop on the Crosstown.
 
ksun said:
The waterfront development will need its own transit, not King st, which is still far. It was fully explained why King st is not the best option all things considered, the most important reason being the cost, so let's not dwell on it. A King subway is unlikely to happen. And it is funny that you think a King alignment can serve the waterfront while Queen being 350 m north of King st can't serve people on King street and the vicinity?

A Queen St alignment strikes a good balance, and it is the one I preferred from day 1. The worst option is go anywhere near Front/Union station.
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Queen St is a good balance for Tory, just like eliminating stations and chopping off half of the Scarborough subway is.

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It's a funny thing one of the suggested improvements to Miller's LRT plan was to use Finch hydro corridor for a faster line and less disruption during construction but one of the arguments the Miller fanboys and fangirls put out was it didn't make sense because people are going to places on Finch not the hydro corridor but the facts are the hydro corridor is closer to Finch than Queen is to King.
 

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Forgotten said:
It's a funny thing one of the suggested improvements to Miller's LRT plan was to use Finch hydro corridor for a faster line and less disruption during construction but one of the arguments the Miller fanboys and fangirls put out was it didn't make sense because people are going to places on Finch not the hydro corridor but the facts are the hydro corridor is closer to Finch than Queen is to King.
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Good luck attempting to use the hydro corridor - Metrolinx - a provincial agency couldn't even wring a bus terminal out of it.

AoD
 
Forgotten said:
Queen St is a good balance for Tory, just like eliminating stations and chopping off half of the Scarborough subway is.

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It's a funny thing one of the suggested improvements to Miller's LRT plan was to use Finch hydro corridor for a faster line and less disruption during construction but one of the arguments the Miller fanboys and fangirls put out was it didn't make sense because people are going to places on Finch not the hydro corridor but the facts are the hydro corridor is closer to Finch than Queen is to King.
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Sometimes chopping stations makes sense. If only a low number of people live within walking distance then there is little point and we shouldn't pay for that. Those feeder buses can terminate somewhere else.

Queen can grow in the future. The hydro corridor can't. The obsession with a King line just because there are more offices is very short sighted. King east is not particularly dense while Queen east has the potential to built a lot of density (think of 88 Queen and 245 Queen, those won't happen on King).
 
Crossovers and tailtracks (third tunnel) should be included at both the Osgoode and City Hall(Queen) stations. In case of problems at Osgoode, the City Hall Station can be used as the downtown terminal.

Should there be three tunnels (and crossover tracks) between Gerrard and Danforth Stations? Likely, north of Riverdale Avenue.
 
It's a funny thing one of the suggested improvements to Miller's LRT plan was to use Finch hydro corridor for a faster line and less disruption during construction but one of the arguments the Miller fanboys and fangirls put out was it didn't make sense because people are going to places on Finch not the hydro corridor but the facts are the hydro corridor is closer to Finch than Queen is to King.
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Pape to King via Unilever is $100 million cheaper than Pape to Queen via Unilever. Once the diversion to Unilever is added, the cost advantage of Queen disappears and King is slightly cheaper.

I think that the planning department is overly focused on making access to City Hall easier. City Hall is not a very important transit destination. Inevitably there is a tradeoff between serving the Eaton Centre, hospitals and Ryerson University along Queen vs serving office towers, George Brown College and many condo developments along King and being closer to the Rogers Centre, Air Canada Centre and Exhibition Place. Ultimately the DRL is going to replace a portion of one of the downtown streetcar lines (Queen or King) once the western extension gets built and it needs to be designed as such. I think looking at the ridership of streetcar lines is a good indicator. King is the busiest streetcar line in the city.

The long term plan should be to build the DRL from Finch/Don Mills to Dundas West via King Street and/or Front/Wellington Street. The purpose of the DRL is to relieve the Yonge line, replace the 25/185 bus route with a subway, relieve the DVP/404 and Gardiner, and replace the 504 streetcar with a subway. The latter follows the precedent of replacing the Yonge and Bloor streetcars with a subway. Ultimately if this is actually built (at a cost of well over $10 billion), it will be similar in length and shape to the Orange Line in Montreal and have similar levels of ridership.
 
ksun said:
Sometimes chopping stations makes sense. If only a low number of people live within walking distance then there is little point and we shouldn't pay for that. Those feeder buses can terminate somewhere else.

Queen can grow in the future. The hydro corridor can't. The obsession with a King line just because there are more offices is very short sighted. King east is not particularly dense while Queen east has the potential to built a lot of density (think of 88 Queen and 245 Queen, those won't happen on King).
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You should get your facts straight. 245 Queen is the very definition of not happening. Too big for the city handle. Buildings just south of King like St. Lawrence condos are bigger and already approved. Thank the city's heritage policies. As long as owners don't illegally demolish or arsonize their own buildings, in 50 years Queen will look like the Danforth does right now while the corridor between Adelaide and Front will look like North York Centre only with a good mix of residential and commercial.
 
andrewpmk said:
Pape to King via Unilever is $100 million cheaper than Pape to Queen via Unilever. Once the diversion to Unilever is added, the cost advantage of Queen disappears and King is slightly cheaper.

I think that the planning department is overly focused on making access to City Hall easier. City Hall is not a very important transit destination. Inevitably there is a tradeoff between serving the Eaton Centre, hospitals and Ryerson University along Queen vs serving office towers, George Brown College and many condo developments along King and being closer to the Rogers Centre, Air Canada Centre and Exhibition Place. Ultimately the DRL is going to replace a portion of one of the downtown streetcar lines (Queen or King) once the western extension gets built and it needs to be designed as such. I think looking at the ridership of streetcar lines is a good indicator. King is the busiest streetcar line in the city.
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It does seem that someone floated a flavour-of-the-month paper about turning City Hall into some sort of destination, and the planning department suddenly felt the need to bow to this new totem in everything they produce. This concept is not a very compelling reason for focusing on Queen.

Having said that, while City Hall is not worth worrying about, Queen has more potential to capture walkership all the way to Dundas and beyond. People at King and Bay do not need the subway in their basement - a walk to Queen is tiny compared to the walk-to-the-tube in many other major cities.

What is truly shortsighted is ending Phase I at University when there are so many destinations in the University to Bathurst sector. Going those one or two extra stops west will have major impact on getting people off Line 2 at Pape, and reduces the significance of surface connections. There will be no offset of King Car ridership if people get off at University and need to transfer to the streetcar for the last half mile.

- Paul
 
Some quotes from the Relief Line presentations:

• Preference for downtown stations that provide direct interchange at the Yonge and University subway lines (i.e. two stations rather than one)
• Protect for a western extension when determining route and stations in downtown (e.g., future proofing)
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Retains opportunities for future extensions west
• Does not preclude the option of heading south to provide interchange with GO Rail at Liberty Village
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– Ease of Constructing Future Northern Extension
– Ease of Constructing Future Western Extension
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And who says the streetcar network will be cut back? They could, and should, stay to provide local service downtown.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Some quotes from the Relief Line presentations:

And who says the streetcar network will be cut back? They could, and should, stay to provide local service downtown.
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Eventually the DRL will be extended west of downtown as far as Dundas West.

It is a waste of money to operate streetcars which duplicate the new streetcar line, and building the DRL will probably require temporarily shutting down streetcars if it runs along King or Queen anyway. Following the precedent of the Yonge and Bloor lines, duplicate streetcar lines should be removed. The new subway will be a vast improvement over the streetcars.
 
andrewpmk said:
Following the precedent of the Yonge and Bloor lines, duplicate streetcar lines should be removed. The new subway will be a vast improvement over the streetcars.
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North of Davisville, bus service remains on Yonge due to the large gaps between stops. Bus service on the entire Yonge line also remains during rush hour. Elsewhere in the world, surface transit also runs above subways to provide more local service. A good example is the F Line in San Francisco, which runs above BART and Muni Metro. I don't think the King and Queen streetcars should necessarily be removed.
 
Is local service going to be needed if they keep with the near 700 meter stop spacing of the line as currently drawn?
 
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