Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Land acquisition is not something typically transferred to the private sector, so Metrolinx would expropriate and identify the MSF first. The contractor would optimize the design within the site.
I would agree, except you need to choose the rolling stock in order to know what site configuration works.

This is (one) of the problems laid out in this strategy.

There are so many holes at this point.

@jcam, I don't see why the P3 partners couldn't request that the government expropriate specific properties at their request.

There's no phase 1 or 2, it's all going to occur at the same time, just broken into separate contracts.

Of course that's what the government is going to publicly claim. But breaking it into separate contracts makes it easier to cancel the other parts later.

The government says that the Request for Qualifications (RFQ) for the segment of the line between Gerrard and Eglinton will begin two years from now. That means that the Request for Proposal (RFP) for this segment won't be issued until well into 2022, and a winning proposal in all likelihood won't be selected until 2023. At that point, this government will likely be gone, and the status of this segment will be up in the air.
 
The government says that the Request for Qualifications (RFQ) for the segment of the line between Gerrard and Eglinton will begin two years from now. That means that the Request for Proposal (RFP) for this segment won't be issued until well into 2022, and a winning proposal in all likelihood won't be selected until 2023. At that point, this government will likely be gone, and the status of this segment will be up in the air.

And then the new government keeps the OL working as a GO relief line only, and decides to build a completely new TTC Relief Line along King?

I am only half joking here .. ;)
 
Phase 2 couldn't really be deferred, as if they are going for different vehicles than the TTC, then they will require a new yard, and that's planned for an industrial property in the Leaside/Thorncliff area. Even if they somehow struck a deal to take over Greenwood, they'd need to pay for TTC's western yard, and get it online before this openned, AND they'd have to extend the work past to Phase 1 boundary up the corridor.

Theres no requirement I dont think to HAVE to use different cars though, no?

Like if a consortium made the decision that they wanted to use the TR trains from Bombardier, they could?

The problem is I still think they would have to be separate yard because the TTC would not just let another operator use their yard.
 
Actually, taking a second look at the RFQ, the first RFQ for "Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations and Maintenance (RSSOM)" does include the Maintenance and Storage Facilities.

The contract for RSSOM includes, "Design, build, operate and maintain the Operations, Maintenance and Storage Facility (where the vehicles are stored); the Operations Control Centre (where staff control train operations and are connected to TTC and GO Transit systems); and the Backup Operations Control Centre"

Requests-for-Qualifications-Issued-for-Ontario-Line

The IO website doesn't actually define where the MSF is supposed to be located, however. If those details aren't in the full RFQ, I suppose it's up to the contractor to define the MSF location.
Good find. At the time I wrote my piece, the RFQ wasn't online; I was going solely on the Ben Spurr article.

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Of course without an identified, acquired/optioned site for the MSF, one can't cost the connection from said facility to the line itself.

Assuming you have competitive bidders; do they all get to 'option' the same site?

That's assuming its do-able w/o expropriation.
Land acquisition is not something typically transferred to the private sector, so Metrolinx would expropriate and identify the MSF first. The contractor would optimize the design within the site.
I would agree, except you need to choose the rolling stock in order to know what site configuration works.

This is (one) of the problems laid out in this strategy.

There are so many holes at this point.

Let's say that the intention is still to build the MSF in the Leaside area. How are the private partners to design and price that MSF, when the details of the segment between Eglinton and Gerrard won't be known for at least another two and a half years or so?

I suppose the winning contract for the MSF would design just the MSF itself. The companies responsible for the Gerrard to Eglinton segment (who won't be selected for another 2.5 years, at least) would then be responsible for figuring out how to connect their segment to the MSF. But what if we later end up discovering that connecting the mainline to the MSF is very expensive or not feasible (we've previously discussed how building an MSF and connecting it to the mainline in that area would not be trivial due to the topography). Or what if the Gerrard to Eglinton segment ends up being astronomically expensive for whatever reason, and the government decides to not move forward... would we end up with an "orphaned" MSF? Heck, how do we even select an MSF location if we don't know where the mainline will be, or how they will connect? Designing the MSF before designing the network in the area of the MSF is very much putting the cart before the horse.

A more logical way to break up the contracts for this project, in my opinion, would be (and again, this assumes that the MSF will be at Leaside):

1. Contract for the Leaside MSF
2. Contract for the segment between Eglinton and Osgoode
3. Contract for the segment between Osgoode and Exhibition

This setup would allow the Leaside MSF to be designed and built concurrently with its connection to the mainline. It would also allow that third contract (Osgoode to Exhibition) to be canceled, without orphaning the MSF. Overall, it would appear to be a far less risky approach.

Now, what I suggested above is assuming that Metrolinx genuinely intends to build the full Ontario Line, as proposed. I'm not convinced that's their intention (and I hate that we have to speculate about their intentions, but alas...).

If Metrolinx only intends for the Ontario Line to relieve RER and Union Station, the contract sequencing they announced today makes perfect sense, as that line would span Exhibition to Don River (Unilever), utilizing Don Yard for maintenance and storage. I suspect the this has always been Metrolinx's primary goal with the Ontario Line, as the OL proposal never had the capacity nor scope to significantly relieve the Yonge Line in the first place, and also given that Metrolinx as explored several "Union/RER relief" proposals in the past. Building the Ontario Line between Exhibition and Don River seems to be a natural evolution of that old proposal to build an underground RER tunnel thru Downtown.
 
Now, what I suggested above is assuming that Metrolinx genuinely intends to build the full Ontario Line, as proposed. I'm not convinced that's their intention (and I hate that we have to speculate about their intentions, but alas...).

If Metrolinx only intends for the Ontario Line to relieve RER and Union Station, the contract sequencing they announced today makes perfect sense, as that line would span Exhibition to Don River (Unilever), utilizing Don Yard for maintenance and storage. I suspect the this has always been Metrolinx's primary goal with the Ontario Line, as the OL proposal never had the capacity nor scope to significantly relieve the Yonge Line in the first place, and also given that Metrolinx as explored several "Union/RER relief" proposals in the past. Building the Ontario Line between Exhibition and Don River seems to be a natural evolution of that old proposal to build an underground RER tunnel thru Downtown.

Here's that old "Union relief" Metrolinx proposal I was talking about. Most of us should be familiar with it. I put the giant star at where the new eastern Ontario Line terminal station would be:

62c4-20111122-metrolinx-4b.jpg-resize_then_crop-_frame_bg_color_FFF-h_1365-gravity_center-q_70...jpg


The intention of this proposal wasn't to relieve Bloor-Yonge or the Yonge Line (although that would be a potential side-effect), but rather to relieve congestion at Union Station. If the portion of the Ontario Line between Gerrard and Eglinton never materializes, this is essentially exactly what we'd end up with. The whole issue with capacity and the size of the trains make perfect sense too, if this is what they plan to build. Connect the dots...

Also, does anyone have a link to the report that this map came from?
 
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Let's say that the intention is still to build the MSF in the Leaside area. How are the private partners to design and price that MSF, when the details of the segment between Eglinton and Gerrard won't be known for at least another two and a half years or so?

I suppose the winning contract for the MSF would design just the MSF itself. The companies responsible for the Gerrard to Eglinton segment (who won't be selected for another 2.5 years, at least) would then be responsible for figuring out how to connect their segment to the MSF. But what if we later end up discovering that connecting the mainline to the MSF is very expensive or not feasible (we've previously discussed how building an MSF and connecting it to the mainline in that area would not be trivial due to the topography). Or what if the Gerrard to Eglinton segment ends up being astronomically expensive for whatever reason, and the government decides to not move forward... would we end up with an "orphaned" MSF? Heck, how do we even select an MSF location if we don't know where the mainline will be, or how they will connect? Designing the MSF before designing the network in the area of the MSF is very much putting the cart before the horse.

A more logical way to break up the contracts for this project, in my opinion, would be (and again, this assumes that the MSF will be at Leaside):

1. Contract for the Leaside MSF
2. Contract for the segment between Eglinton and Osgoode
3. Contract for the segment between Osgoode and Exhibition

This setup would allow the Leaside MSF to be designed and built concurrently with its connection to the mainline. It would also allow that third contract (Osgoode to Exhibition) to be canceled, without orphaning the MSF. Overall, it would appear to be a far less risky approach.

Now, what I suggested above is assuming that Metrolinx genuinely intends to build the full Ontario Line, as proposed. I'm not convinced that's their intention (and I hate that we have to speculate about their intentions, but alas...).

If Metrolinx only intends for the Ontario Line to relieve RER and Union Station, the contract sequencing they announced today makes perfect sense, as that line would span Exhibition to Don River (Unilever), utilizing Don Yard for maintenance and storage. I suspect the this has always been Metrolinx's primary goal with the Ontario Line, as the OL proposal never had the capacity nor scope to significantly relieve the Yonge Line in the first place, and also given that Metrolinx as explored several "Union/RER relief" proposals in the past. Building the Ontario Line between Exhibition and Don River seems to be a natural evolution of that old proposal to build an underground RER tunnel thru Downtown.
Here's that old "Union relief" Metrolinx proposal I was talking about. Most of us should be familiar with it. I put the giant star at where the new eastern Ontario Line terminal station would be:

View attachment 249193

The intention of this proposal wasn't to relieve Bloor-Yonge or the Yonge Line (although that would be a potential side-effect), but rather to relieve congestion at Union Station. If the portion of the Ontario Line between Gerrard and Eglinton never materializes, this is essentially exactly what we'd end up with. Connect the dots...

Also, does anyone have a link to the report that this map came from?

Also, given that Micheal Schebas, who, deemed the Relief Line to be "unnecessary" is apparently leading the Ontario Line efforts at Metrolinx, it shouldn't really come as a surprise that this is this is the direction Metrolinx could be heading with the Ontario Line.

Doug Ford’s transit consultant once argued against relief line and Scarborough subway
 
Can we stop criticizing for a moment, and embrace the fact that there's concrete progress on the transit file? This is as close as we've come to riding the relief line no matter what you say about Doug Ford.
By the way, the RFQ's close in almost 3 months (08/25) and I applaud the aggressive timeline.
I really appreciate your positivity. The Ontario line is by no means a perfect project but at least we're moving at a faster pace than the Relief line. If only we knew much more about the line, however...
 
Wait, since when is this a positive? We still don't know anything about this project, other than the fact that it's probably not going to provide any relief to the areas that need it. When we need another line through downtown to do what the Relief Line is supposed to do, are we going to have any space left to build it?
 
Wait, since when is this a positive? We still don't know anything about this project, other than the fact that it's probably not going to provide any relief to the areas that need it. When we need another line through downtown to do what the Relief Line is supposed to do, are we going to have any space left to build it?
Never said the line is a good thing. I was hinting at the little positivity in a project shrouded in doom and gloom.
 
Also, given that Micheal Schebas, who, deemed the Relief Line to be "unnecessary" is apparently leading the Ontario Line efforts at Metrolinx, it shouldn't really come as a surprise that this is this is the direction Metrolinx could be heading with the Ontario Line.

Doug Ford’s transit consultant once argued against relief line and Scarborough subway

Damn I hate it when someone is half right haha. (The Scarb subway part, I think he was bang on about that one)
 
Hard to say as it's quite possibly the teams may not play well together. On the flip side, smaller projects are more manageable and allow smaller (then possibly local) players to participate.

Breaking up the contracts is smart. It allows smaller companies to bid, increasing competition, and lowers the risk to each individual bidder, which also lowers costs.
 
Another major issue is that it’s still unknown when the RFQ/RFP for the above ground segments in the RER corridor will be initialized and completed. Without that, we have no answer for the critical question of is it even possible to build the OL in these corridors. This is also a prerequisite if Don Yard is to be selected for the MSF. Furthermore, given the constrained permissible track geometries on the surface segments, I’m not certain that a vehicle could even be selected at the moment.

With that in mind, I wouldn’t expect the RFP for the southern section to begin until the details for the surface section are sorted out.
The above ground segment will be tendered via a traditional procurement by Metrolinx, as it's a relatively small project. There won't be an RFQ/RFP for it. Read the news releases please before speculating.
 

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