Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

TheTigerMaster said:
Yes, you can achieve 90 second headways, in short spurts, if everything goes perfectly. If everything goes perfectly…

This is the real world though, and everything will not go perfectly. I’d be impressed if there are any rapid transit lines with 90% utilization rates that reliably hit 90 second headways. That’s a very tough task when you have 50,000+ imperfect human passengers doing imperfect human things on your rapid transit system at any given time. Everything from passengers holding up doors, to poor passenger circulation in stations and trains will impact the headways.

We were discussing this same topic in this thread a few months ago. Someone posted a PDF document comparing headways and utilization rates of various rapid transit lines around the world. If my memory serves me correctly, the only systems that were able to consistently hit that target were high capacity systems with relatively low ridership. It’s easy to hit 90 second headways, even without ATO, when you have a transit system running empty trains, with few opportunities for passengers to screw up the operation. This used to happen all the time during the early days of Line 1, even without ATO. However, it’s a totally different situation on lines that will be at near 100% capacity like the Ontario Line. There is an inverse relationship between the utilization rate of a rapid transit line and reliably achievable headways.

You’d definitely know better than me though. I’d be really curious to know if there are any metro lines in the world that reliably achieve 90 second headways while also having a 90%+ utilization rate. I'm not really interested in systems that achieve this with lower utilization rates. I don't recall being finding any example, but I might very well be wrong

But even if this was achievable elsewhere, I still say it would be unwise to assume it would be replicated here in Toronto, simply due to the local culture. We all know commuters in Toronto have little reservation about holding train doors at stations. All the time at across the system, even when trains aren't all that crowded, I see train operators having to press the door close buttons multiple times due to passengers rushing the doors. The problem is so bad that the TTC has had to hire announcers to practically beg customers not to delay trains at Bloor-Yonge. A few of incidents of passengers delaying a train by 10 seconds will quickly erode away your theoretically achievable 90 second headways

Also, given how cheaply this line is being built, I don't have a ton of faith that these stations will be designed with proper circulation to eliminate the crowding that induces passengers to hold doors open. These stations will likely look a lot like the Line 1 stations, with few points of egress resulting in passengers lumping themselves in one part of the train or platform. We see this all the time on the Yonge Line, where the north end of trains will be crowded with passengers, while the south end is empty, because passengers refuse to move to the south end of the Line 1 platforms at Bloor-Yonge Station (this is because the transfer to the Line 2 platforms are at the north end of the platform). Even though the TTC's ATO system is fully capable of 90 second headways, and even if track geometries were modified to be compatible with 90 second headways, I don't believe for a second that we'd ever see rush hour services with 90 second headways on the TTC, unless we drastically reduced ridership and redesigned the Line 1 stations to allow for better passenger flow through stations. Perhaps that would be achievable off peak, when 90 second headways aren’t needed in the first place, but certainly not on peak in busy sections when those headways would actually be beneficial

So long story short, I think any claims that 90 second headways will significantly boost real-world capacity in Toronto needs to be taken with an incredible grain of salt. Just because a system is technically capable of it, doesn't mean it will ever actually happen when it's needed most (trains and platforms are full)
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The problem is that a lot of the problem depends on the track layout, moreso than the signalling system. The signalling system enforces the rules and safety. The track layout, however, will dictate how the operation will actually run.

The only line that I know of that regularly operates at a 90-ish second headway with approaching a 90% utilization rate is Line 2 in Paris. And a very large part of the reason why they are able to do that is by operating the line in a loop - that way, there are no crossing movements so that signal system isn't required to block off crossovers and switches. The trains all run in a line, one after the other.

(This is certainly by no means the only methodology to be able to do this reliably. Systems with multiple branches at both ends can certainly achieve this kind of headway as well. But it is the easiest if you want the full line to operate at the same headway.)

For the record, I'm not suggesting that we should be aspiring to operate at a 90 second headway, specifically for the reasons that you've given. But moreso, pointing out that a 90 second headway is not an overly difficult thing to achieve, even with Toronto's track layout and fixed-block signalling system. But as you correctly point out, a 90 second headway should only be used as a way to get the system back to normal, and not a normal manner of operation.

I too worry about the configuration of the Ontario Line, but until we see detailed designs I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Dan
 
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Towered said:
There's a Steve Munro backlash now? The guy has done more for public transit in Toronto over 50 years than any single politician - he has dedicated his life to it for zero personal gain.
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While I love reading Mr. Munro's blog, I find his writing too Toronto-centric, as only the TTC know how to run transit in the world. It's been a pet peeve of mine (well there are many like that too here).
 
smallspy said:
The problem is that a lot of the problem depends on the track layout, moreso than the signalling system. The signalling system enforces the rules and safety. The track layout, however, will dictate how the operation will actually run.

The only line that I know of that regularly operates at a 90-ish second headway with approaching a 90% utilization rate is Line 2 in Paris. And a very large part of the reason why they are able to do that is by operating the line in a loop - that way, there are no crossing movements so that signal system isn't required to block off crossovers and switches. The trains all run in a line, one after the other.

(This is certainly by no means the only methodology to be able to do this reliably. Systems with multiple branches at both ends can certainly achieve this kind of headway as well. But it is the easiest if you want the full line to operate at the same headway.)

For the record, I'm not suggesting that we should be aspiring to operate at a 90 second headway, specifically for the reasons that you've given. But moreso, pointing out that a 90 second headway is not an overly difficult thing to achieve, even with Toronto's track layout and fixed-block signalling system. But as you correctly point out, a 90 second headway should only be used as a way to get the system back to normal, and not a normal manner of operation.

I too worry about the configuration of the Ontario Line, but until we see detailed designs I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Dan
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Knowing Metrolinx, we won't see detailed designs. They want this to be a P3, so I highly doubt we'll see anything of substance unless there are insiders on the project willing to "leak" documents (For those that are tempted to do that, NEVER EVER. YOU ARE LIABLE).

The Track layout for the Ontario Line looks awful though (based on initial designs), with some curve radii seemingly approaching 300m. It honestly looks worse than the Union section of the Subway, and that is a major choke-point on the network.

If Metrolinx is so keen on using automated trains and 100m platforms, I see no reason to not use existing rolling stock. At least it'd be compatible with the rest of the system.
p_xavier said:
While I love reading Mr. Munro's blog, I find his writing too Toronto-centric, as only the TTC know how to run transit in the world. It's been a pet peeve of mine (well there are many like that too here).
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No s***, his expertise is based on Toronto transit. He's writing about Toronto after all.

The TTC used to be a golden standard for public transportation not just in North America, but around the world, and I'm not even exaggerating. Even though a lot of things have gotten worse (fares, subway delays, route scheduling), there are a bunch of things the TTC does today that are still the best in the world or approaching the best in the world (frequent surface networks, streetcars, integrated modes of transportation, and even the frequency of our subway network).

The TTC is not the only agency that knows how to run a public transportation agency, but they certainly are the only organization that knows how to run one in Toronto, which has different needs from every other city in the world. Bring SEPTA workers, or even JR East workers here, and they'll f*** things up for a while, I guarantee it. Likewise, if you send TTC staff elsewhere, they would do an awful job running other transit agencies in different cities.
 
Streety McCarface said:
No s***, his expertise is based on Toronto transit. He's writing about Toronto after all.

The TTC used to be a golden standard for public transportation not just in North America, but around the world, and I'm not even exaggerating. Even though a lot of things have gotten worse (fares, subway delays, route scheduling), there are a bunch of things the TTC does today that are still the best in the world or approaching the best in the world (frequent surface networks, streetcars, integrated modes of transportation, and even the frequency of our subway network).

The TTC is not the only agency that knows how to run a public transportation agency, but they certainly are the only organization that knows how to run one in Toronto, which has different needs from every other city in the world. Bring SEPTA workers, or even JR East workers here, and they'll f*** things up for a while, I guarantee it. Likewise, if you send TTC staff elsewhere, they would do an awful job running other transit agencies in different cities.
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TTC is far from perfect, but at the end of the day I think they're doing a fantastic job with the limited resources they're given. Damn near all my ire is directed towards the City of Toronto, the Province of Ontario and Metrolinx for interfering politically with Toronto's capital expansion and maintenance plans. Their involvement has in Toronto's transit affairs has done far more harm than good.

The City of Toronto in particular has really screwed over the TTC with their instance of keeping property taxes below the rate of inflation. Municipal politicians, and Mayor Tory especially, seem to be waking up to the damage they've done, so I'm cautiously optimistic that this'll change in the new decade.

Meanwhile Metrolinx really cannot be trusted with handling system operations and expansions in the City of Toronto as long as they remain a political puppet of the Premier and Ministry of Transport.
 
Towered said:
There's a Steve Munro backlash now? The guy has done more for public transit in Toronto over 50 years than any single politician - he has dedicated his life to it for zero personal gain.
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He and Jane Jacobs are why Toronto still has streetcars to this day and saw great potential in them when the streetcar was considered obsolete in many other North American cities. I consider Munro a guru for all transit fans in Toronto.
 
Johnny Au said:
He and Jane Jacobs are why Toronto still has streetcars to this day and saw great potential in them when the streetcar was considered obsolete in many other North American cities. I consider Munro a guru for all transit fans in Toronto.
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A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
 
Hopkins123 said:
A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
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I'll take a streetcar network that carries 500K passengers per day and serves all of Downtown & Old Toronto over one ICTS line that can only carry about 250K PPD. I guarantee you that if the streetcar network was removed, we'd have far less traffic throughout the subway network, we'd be far worse off financially, and downtown wouldn't be nearly as lively as it is today.
 
Hopkins123 said:
A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
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You can blame Jack Layton and Mel Lastman for that
 
Hopkins123 said:
A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
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I hope that's a joke.

Conversion of the streetcar lines to bus operation would have done nothing to accelerate the design and construction of the DRL.

Dan
 
Hopkins123 said:
A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
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I mean sure half our streetcar system is served by buses now but I rather have a entire streetcar network serving downtown and the nearby area than an ICTS DRL that reaches capacity within a few years.
 
Coolstar said:
I mean sure half our streetcar system is served by buses now but I rather have a entire streetcar network serving downtown and the nearby area than an ICTS DRL that reaches capacity within a few years.
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I'd rather have a streetcar network serving the downtown area and a DRL. We don't have to choose between one and the other.

And I'd rather have an ICTS DRL that's at capacity over what we ended up with over the last 35 years, which is nothing.
 
MisterF said:
I'd rather have a streetcar network serving the downtown area and a DRL. We don't have to choose between one and the other.

And I'd rather have an ICTS DRL that's at capacity over what we ended up with over the last 35 years, which is nothing.
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The TTC made a mistake removing the streetcar tracks and trolley wires from Yonge Street, Bloor Street, and Danforth Avenue. Night service and streetcar shuttles would have been much better than the current use of bus shuttles, because of the current subway shutdowns or emergencies.
 
Hopkins123 said:
A ha! So he's to blame as to why the Downtown Relief Line wasn't built from the 1980s because of the desire to preserve the King and Queen streetcars. Got it. Holding on to nostalgia cost this city dearly cause back then the entire DRL would have been built for just a few hundred million dollars in today's dollars compared to the untold billions of today.
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Not really true. Mostly due to a desire to maintain stable neighbourhoods (Toronto), while also polynucleating the metropolis (Metro).
 
W. K. Lis said:
The TTC made a mistake removing the streetcar tracks and trolley wires from Yonge Street, Bloor Street, and Danforth Avenue. Night service and streetcar shuttles would have been much better than the current use of bus shuttles, because of the current subway shutdowns or emergencies.
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I disagree. Even if they didn't remove it, they would have been left unmaintained like Adelaide and eventually rot to a stage that they wouldn't be usable. Keeping the infrastructure running has an operating cost too. Yonge, Bloor and Danforth didn't need the overnight demand for many decades and full weekend shutdowns were only a recent thing. Overnight buses are only busy between 1:30-3:30am and 6-8am on Sundays. It really doesn't justifies keeping them for 2 service hours a day.

Then what do you do for shutdowns from Sheppard to St Clair? Extend the tracks to Finch and rebuild Eglinton/Yonge every time they rearrange the intersection? Sounds like a pipe dream.
 
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