Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[syn]

Left vs right confirmation bias in action

To be fair, in my summary I did note that it was generally considered an idea with merit.

The transportation engineer that gives it a nod in one article is the same one that points out a bunch of problems in the other.

To be honest, I don't really care about left and right politics. Ford isn't even right wing, he's a populist. I was considering the Conservatives when Brown was in charge.

I just want to see this done properly - there are so many obvious issues with it.

 

[syn]

Speaking for myself it has nothing to do with political stripes. I'm in favour of properly planned subways as many here are. My problem is with jank being peddled by snake oil salesmen. The 30 year long Scarborough LRT disaster was foisted upon us by a Kennedy School flunky and we don't need another monument to his stupidity in this city.

Looking back at coverage of the time, Scarborough councillors were almost unanimous in their support of the RT.

Hopefully the city is clear about where they stand on this project.

You spend years nailing down a route for the first section then a few years later when you finally turn to consider the other section you run into a gotcha that prevents you from doing the optimal thing because of choices you made earlier. That's not smart planning.

The DRL South wasn't devised in a bubble though. Route considerations take future expansions into account.

Kind of like how the Yonge and Bloor Lines weren't all built at once.

Looking at the start end points of the current DRL plan, there's absolutely no reason to think they couldn't plan proper north and west extensions. The OL hits both of those end points.

 

[Coolstar]

Honestly Doug Ford is doing all of this just to get back at John Tory for losing the 2014 election to him. Why do you think he keeps doing things that impacts Toronto?

 

[Alex L]

One odd thing is that, if the Vancouver technology is adopted, is that it is a newer version of the current Scarborough LRT. The TTC did not want to upgrade the Scarborough LRT to the newer Bombardier because they did not want multiple LRT technologies and the Bombardier was/is aged. And they did not want the LRT out of service for years. The Scarborough LRT was also a provincial project.

The Scarborough LRT could have been upgraded and running by now for several hundred million. I still think it is a waste to simply scrap the Scarborough LRT. And of course, the new subway to STC is a very expensive alternative.

 

[Neutrino]

Eliminate the connection to B-D.

Huh?

 

[BurlOak]

Huh?

I meant the physical track connection. It's a different type of train, so connection is not needed - save some money.
It would still be an interchange station.

 

[treplow]

It's been a few years since I visited, but I seem to remember Tube trains sharing track with commuter/regional trains at several points in London. Wonder if something similar is planned for the Ontario Line/GO rail corridor integration, or if the OL will have it's own elevated guideway next to the tracks as

 

[Steve X]

I'd also say that history has demonstrated the TTC is excellent at building subways. Things started going sideways when the province got involved, and it's only gotten worse overtime.

What province got involved? They didn't even admit there was a problem till it was too late. They tried to hide the fact things weren't right till they have to hire a project manager to finish the job cause they can't do it. Then the stations turn out all leaky when a storm hits. That's nothing excellent about that. They end up having York Region pay more cause of their fault.

I wouldn't say TTC managing it would be superior to ML. They both got pros and cons.

 

[crs1026]

Looking back at coverage of the time, Scarborough councillors were almost unanimous in their support of the RT.

Fact Check time. The Scarborough Council vote in June 1981 was 11-5, with Mayor Gus Harris bitterly opposed. That's a bit short of nearly unanimous, although there was a clear majority.

The guy who rammed it through on behalf of the Province was Metro Chair Paul Godfrey.

- Paul

 

[syn]

What province got involved? They didn't even admit there was a problem till it was too late. They tried to hide the fact things weren't right till they have to hire a project manager to finish the job cause they can't do it. Then the stations turn out all leaky when a storm hits. That's nothing excellent about that. They end up having York Region pay more cause of their fault.

I wouldn't say TTC managing it would be superior to ML. They both got pros and cons.

Who built the Yonge Line?

Who built the Bloor Danforth?

When I mentioned historically, I meant the entire history of the TTC, not just their last project.

Let's not forget the TTC is among the most efficient mass transit systems in North America from a financial perspective.

 

[syn]

Fact Check time. The Scarborough Council vote in June 1981 was 11-5, with Mayor Gus Harris bitterly opposed. That's a bit short of nearly unanimous, although there was a clear majority.

The guy who rammed it through on behalf of the Province was Metro Chair Paul Godfrey.

- Paul

View attachment 196441

Good catch, I recall the Mayor being opposed but the councilors being almost entirely in favour. I was definitely off.

 

[BurlOak]

Ok.....I'm almost through the business case...........some interesting details here that beg many further questions........updates as I finish:

The following technological assumptions were made to develop a cost-efficient concept: Generic standard gauge technology, which enables competitive procurement and protects for possible future extensions on to GO rail tracks
***
By terminating at the Ontario Place/Exhibition Station the Ontario Line is protected for future potential western extensions.

I didn't think of it before - but does this mean the Ontario Line can be extended west beyond Ex. Place, or does it mean extended on the GO tracks, so essentially a GO train (well a smaller electric one) can travel from Port Credit to Scarborough via City Hall.?

Or are the extensions just refering to North along the Richmond Hill GO corridor.?

 

[Streety McCarface]

I love how one of your arguments is that the trains are the same width as the current subway trains, and then another is that they are using "smaller lighter" trains.

The only part thats smaller with these trains is the length. Its easy to add more cars to make them longer, and platforms.

The Montreal Metro trains are smaller than the Toronto subways but they are longer, and thus they have the same capacity.

That doesnt change the fact that they are more modern and lighter trains than the current subway technology we use in Toronto, as well as a more modern signalling system than even the CBTC upgrade, as well as the track technology, and everything will be off the shelf.

I already showed that all metro trains basically have the same weight/area ratio. Montreal metro trains weigh more per unit area than TTC trains because they are narrower. Trains require the same components, and those required components aren't going to change any time soon. In fact, with additional computers, the automated trains proposed are likely going to be heavier per unit area than the current subway trains. Nevertheless, weight doesn't really make things more expensive when in a tunnel or at-grade, it's a train for christ's sake.

It's actually not easier to lengthen platforms, that's why they shortened them in this proposal. Stations cost the bulk of the money in the project, and removing platform length helps nothing long-term.

No train is "off the shelf". "Off the shelf" for us would be a train that fits our system and can be integrated with the rest of the network. Every system has different requirements, you're never going to have a train that fits every system. Where you will save money is when you buy rolling stock in bulk, and pairing a Relief line rolling stock order with Line 1 Expansion/Line 2 replacement rolling stock will save more money per-car than buying any new model of the train will. Track technology is exactly the same so that's a moot point, and you can upgrade the signaling system of any train you want.

 

[Streety McCarface]

What province got involved? They didn't even admit there was a problem till it was too late. They tried to hide the fact things weren't right till they have to hire a project manager to finish the job cause they can't do it. Then the stations turn out all leaky when a storm hits. That's nothing excellent about that. They end up having York Region pay more cause of their fault.

I wouldn't say TTC managing it would be superior to ML. They both got pros and cons.

The TYSSE was a shitshow but it was still a successful addition to the network and built cheaply considering modern subway construction costs. One also must note that Metrolinx was heavily involved in that project as well, from financing (influencing contractor choices) to design. The last major TTC subway construction project was the Sheppard Subway, and despite the crap the line gets, it was built on time and on budget. The same can pretty much be said for the Sheppard West Extension, the Spadina Subway, and the Kennedy/Kipling extensions. With Metrolinx, Either something is delayed or something imperative is cut (electrification for the UPX, construction for the Crosstown and Finch West LRT). Most of it is likely due to the construction conditions and techniques of today, and the standards we have set for ourselves.

Side note, this line will theoretically be built using the P3 method. This is a recipe for disaster. I can understand contracting out for a new LRT line in the middle of nowhere (ie iON) or a commuter rail service, but not a vital rapid transit project that needs thorough integration with the TTC, not GO.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I already showed that all metro trains basically have the same weight/area ratio. Montreal metro trains weigh more per unit area than TTC trains because they are narrower. Trains require the same components, and those required components aren't going to change any time soon. In fact, with additional computers, trains the automated trains proposed are likely going to be heavier per unit area than the current subway trains. Nevertheless, weight doesn't really make things more expensive when in a tunnel or at-grade, it's a train for christ's sake.
...

None of Montréal's Metro trains are air conditioning!! Maybe okay in winter, but not in summer. The pneumatic tires generate heat, and they have to have additional steel guide wheels, which add to the mass and energy consumption.