Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

If Ford decides to build the Queen subway designed for RER service, which I think it a great idea, it does beg the question...……...should Toronto immediately go forward with the DRL? Would it not be prudent to wait and see what kind of impact RER would have on any potential DRL? If RER is coming in every 6 minutes towards downtown {as by that point it would have a combination of RER service from Stoufvillel and LSE} that would mean that every single Scar resident going downtown will be taken off the B/D line greatly reducing congestion at Y&B.

A Pape to downtown DRL is nothing more than Y&B by-pass and won't make ANY time savings for anyone north of Bloor. That will only happen if it eventually gets extended further north to Eglinton and beyond. Even if that day eventually comes, a catenary subway train would still be the preferred option by being able to take advantage of the RH rail corridor unlike standard 3rd rail.
 
Really little point discussing Castle Frank as a transfer point. You want to talk connections from the Valley the obvious answer is one station over: Broadview. Naturally requires RH line on Don Branch, station either under or adjacent to the viaduct, then connect to Broadview. Less horizontal distance, less vertical distance, it's above the floodplain, Broadview has way more interconnecting lines. That's the clear winner for a transfer station. But this isn't really a RL discussion at this point.
Except it (and Castle Frank) are too far west to provide good relief to Bloor-Yonge station.

It isn't time-competitive (on paper anyway, crush loads at B-Y might change the equation) to transfer at that point, if your destination is Queen/King Station.

If Ford decides to build the Queen subway designed for RER service, which I think it a great idea, it does beg the question...……...should Toronto immediately go forward with the DRL? Would it not be prudent to wait and see what kind of impact RER would have on any potential DRL? If RER is coming in every 6 minutes towards downtown {as by that point it would have a combination of RER service from Stoufvillel and LSE} that would mean that every single Scar resident going downtown will be taken off the B/D line greatly reducing congestion at Y&B.

A Pape to downtown DRL is nothing more than Y&B by-pass and won't make ANY time savings for anyone north of Bloor. That will only happen if it eventually gets extended further north to Eglinton and beyond. Even if that day eventually comes, a catenary subway train would still be the preferred option by being able to take advantage of the RH rail corridor unlike standard 3rd rail.

You raise several points which for me highlight the many ways that the project end-result could go wrong for Toronto.

Sure, if we got this tunnel-RER as DRL concept correct, it would work well. Do we have the (a) funding; (b) political will; and (c) technical expertise and institutional capacity, in order to get it right? Back of the napkin plans can only go so far (see SmartTrack).
 
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Found this on Facebook. Personally, I wouldn't mind hitching a ride on The Steve Munro Automated Swan Boat Lazy River. It'd be slow, sure, but at least it would be a less stressful way to commute.

The Steve Munro Swan Boat would probably be built in less time and effort time then the Relief Line has

I so want to go like this:
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Sure, if we got this tunnel-RER as DRL concept correct, it would work well. Do we have the (a) funding; (b) political will; and (c) technical expertise and institutional capacity, in order to get it right? Back of the napkin plans can only go so far (see SmartTrack).

Those concerns are valid, but I think the key is the tunnel design.

If we build RER tunnels in the right place and for the right capacity, but fail to operate them efficiently from the get-go, that's not a fatal flaw. We can learn from our own mistakes or from other cities successes, adjust the tracks, the schedules, the signaling etc and get it right eventually.

If we try to do without a tunnel at all, or build a tunnel with a clearly inadequate capacity, then we are toasted indeed. Mission failed, money spent, no new funding on the horizon. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
 
Sure, if we got this tunnel-RER as DRL concept correct, it would work well. Do we have the (a) funding; (b) political will; and (c) technical expertise and institutional capacity, in order to get it right? Back of the napkin plans can only go so far (see SmartTrack).
In the absence of any of those three for the Relief Line as proposed...it's an even wash.

What it really comes down to is a proposal from private enterprise. Ford has already dropped many hints, and one massive proviso, for anything: Little to no gov't funding.

Meantime:
Rail projects in Montreal, Toronto and L.A. make Top 10 on world infrastructure list
Written by Kyra Senese, managing editor
Three transit and commuter rail projects in North America are among the most significant infrastructure projects on earth, according to advocacy group CG/LA.

The top North American project on the Strategic 100 Global Infrastructure List is the Réseau Express Métropolitain (REM), which was ranked third worldwide.

REM-CDPQ-300x198.jpg

REM image courtesy of CDPQ Infra
Designed to identify projects with the most potential opportunity in the upcoming year, the CG/LA reports identify work with broad benefits and strategic importance in 30 counties.

Once completed, Réseau Express Métropolitain will be the fourth-largest automated transportation system in the world, trailing only Singapore, Dubai and Vancouver. The project is in the construction phase and has a value of about $4.85 billion. In December of 2018, RT&S reported that the REM had reached a new milestone, with work beginning on the first of the system’s 26 stations and elevated-track sections.

Also making the Top 10 is the Metrolinx Regional Express Rail project. That $10.4 billion deal plan involves a massive overhaul and expansion of rail service in Toronto region.
[...]
https://www.rtands.com/news/report-names-top-north-american-projects/

The RER info might be dated. Article is very recent though. What's clear is that REM is the kind of project that attracts investors.
 
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In the absence of any of those three for the Relief Line as proposed...it's an even wash.

What it really comes down to is a proposal from private enterprise. Ford has already dropped many hints, and one massive proviso, for anything: Little to no gov't funding.
Ford did just commit a large amount of funds to Ottawa’s LRT
 
While I realise that you guys love arguing about alignments, station design, station names, tile patterns etc. (for 11 years)...

Would it not be prudent to wait and find out exactly what the Fat One is proposing before going on and on and on about...

Nothing?
 
While I realise that you guys love arguing about alignments, station design, station names, tile patterns etc. (for 11 years)...

Would it not be prudent to wait and find out exactly what the Fat One is proposing before going on and on and on about...

Nothing?
Prudence is when you know details. Projection is when you don't. You fail to understand the difference.
exactly what the Fat One is proposing
He hasn't a clue, and thus the exercise of "proposing" what is possible, and what isn't.
 
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@tayser : I bounced this post to this string, as I suspect this concept has been proposed for Toronto's Relief Line. I'd like to see a fuller RER built, but since Montreal is well underway in building this, and Sydney is a close analogue to Toronto (not as close as Melbourne, but close), I'd find it hard to believe this isn't the offer on Metrolinx' table at this time for all the reasons you state. Funding would be more akin to the Montreal REM example, mostly private with some Federal participation, mostly loans, in REM's case through the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

From the 'Montreal largest subway system' string:
The Alstom/Metropolis train platform is looking to be extremely popular these days and the Montréal project and one closer to home, Sydney's new metro, provide some really good / up to date data on how to use these off-the-shelf (well sort of off-the-shelf) systems for local applications. No doubt some of on here are licking your lips, so to speak? :)

The first section of the Sydney Metro, surprisingly, has come in $1 billion under budget according to the newly re-elected Liberal state Government of New South Wales - this is the section is 33km long (16km of it brand spanking new tunnel and reusing a tunnel that was built for Sydney Trains last decade). Original budget: $8.3 billion, now $7.3 billion - or $221million/km. One of the local commercial TV news outlets reports it was mainly due to tunneling completed 10 months ahead of schedule.

That figure is for everything - fleet procurement, maintenance and storage depots, operation/maintenance over 15 years etc (the whole project is structured in multiple PPPs - the tunneling contract was for $1.15 billion and included the civil works only for the tunnels and station pits - i.e station fitouts, tunnel fit outs (signaling/electricity etc) was in a separate contract - the $1billion savings must come from the other contracts because I doubt it only cost $150 million to do the civil works for 16km of new tunnels and station pits!).

It'll be interesting to see if that per km figure is maintained as the second phase which runs underground for another 15.5 km (entirely new tunnel - 5 TBMs are in use, a specialised one was procured to do the short hop under Port Jackson) and the rest of the line will be a conversion - much like the Montréal/Deux-Montagnes section of the REM.

Montréal's choice to go down the path of 2-car sets, married in peaks, is interesting too - Sydney Metro will be permanent 6-car sets from the outset with all stations built to eventually cater for 8-car sets - can definitely see how Montréal's getting such a good (in a financial sense) deal from this system - multiple branches and really good frequency. Sydney Metro will have 15TPH peak frequency at the opening of the North West section (which is a matter of weeks away) and when the City & Southwest section comes on board they quoting the same type of service level. Lots of scope for frequency increases over time.

Anyhow - I look at the REM and Sydney Metro project and look at another local proposal here - the Suburban Rail Loop which will eventually connect all but 4 of Melbourne's orbital rail lines - and think the government would be made not go down down the path of such an implementation. There's a lot of complexity in the west but eastern and northern sides (ending up at the Airport), I hope they go down the path of building something similar to this.

Although 2-4 car trains (Montréal) will probably be too small, the trains on the new system will have to be similar to the Sydney system (and also run a bit faster than what Montreal/Sydney will see - our gov wants to see a top in service speed of 130kph).
 
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I got dizzy watching this commute from platform to exit once. I would likely go insane if I had to do this every day. Plus it takes 3-4 minutes to get from platform to exit with out any other pedestrians trying to at the same time. Also it feels like every time I use the ttc the escalator I out of service. So many things I would hate about this. But sure it’s underground which the drl needs to be. But I don’t know how subway advocates can justify this yet at the same time complain about outdoor platforms on the lrt lines with a straight face.
I got dizzy watching this commute from platform to exit once. I would likely go insane if I had to do this every day. Plus it takes 3-4 minutes to get from platform to exit with out any other pedestrians trying to at the same time. Also it feels like every time I use the ttc the escalator I out of service. So many things I would hate about this. But sure it’s underground which the drl needs to be. But I don’t know how subway advocates can justify this yet at the same time complain about outdoor platforms on the lrt lines with a straight face.

There are elevators.
 
There are elevators.
people already line up at the elevators at places with one large escalator such as Eglinton west. If you are telling me theres a half a dozen escalators to exit the building I am going to assume that half the train will be waiting for the elevator based on Toronto practices I see. Why would we want to encourage that. Shallow stations are the way to go and the only reason we dont build them is because of NIMBYS... Come to think about it the only reason we are slow to build anything is because of NIMBYS... yet all the dollar stores and xxx stores on st clair west have been replaced with retail I would like to shop at. So much for the world will fall once theres a ROW.
 
... I am going to assume that half the train will be waiting for the elevator based on Toronto practices I see.
I've been surprised at how busy some of the elevators are in TTC stations, on some occasions I've used them going up from the platform (with lots of luggage, a stroller, or on a rare occasion I've turned an ankle). Many though seem to have something in tow, or look slower. But there's always some you think can walk ... but hard to tell at a glance how much pain someone is in.
 

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