Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[Dan416]

GenerationW your little chat with Mr. Giambrone is very depressing. To me it shows that he is part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I agree that providing service to new neighbourhoods should be prioritized over relief. That's why I support the DRL along the Front/Railway/Pape/Don Mills alignment. The Don Mills area is very poorly served by transit considering its high density development. The area along Pape is also rapidly developing and would benefit from improved service, while riders from further east could benefit from transferring to the subway for a quick and reliable ride home. Closer to downtown, the route would directly serve the West Don Lands, St. Lawrence, East Bayfront, Liberty Village and the northern Port Lands--together the largest areas of growth in the downtown core.

I do not support the initial DRL plan for only one station (with two optional stations) from Pape to Union. I support intermediate stations at Gerrard, Queen/Pape, Cherry, and Sherbourne/Jarvis. That would put all of those neighbourhoods within 500m of a subway station.

Another thought I've had is that depending on how the Portlands/Filmport area is to be developed, it might make sense to swing down to Lakeshore and build some stations along there. It should be very easy to fit in an elevated line along the Lakeshore east of the Don.

Then by that logic we shouldn't be building the York or Richmond hill extensions either, as they arguably won't bring any new riders to the system but rather shift the terminus (as thus the congestion surrounding it). Sorry I don't know where the respective posters stand on this issue just wanted to point that out.

 

[unimaginative2]

Then by that logic we shouldn't be building the York or Richmond hill extensions either, as they arguably won't bring any new riders to the system but rather shift the terminus (as thus the congestion surrounding it). Sorry I don't know where the respective posters stand on this issue just wanted to point that out.

Wait...I'm sorry, where did you get that from what I said? I've read over it three times and I'm completely baffled. There's no doubt those extensions will bring new riders to the system, and will also provide a much higher capacity in congested corridors so that they will no longer be so congested.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Wait...I'm sorry, where did you get that from what I said? I've read over it three times and I'm completely baffled. There's no doubt those extensions will bring new riders to the system, and will also provide a much higher capacity in congested corridors so that they will no longer be so congested.

I hope you're being sarcastic. There will be no new riders with the Richmond hill extension (possibly a slight increase with the York extension if the VCC ever gets built out to full). On the yonge line, however, the same riders that we have today will still be riding it tomorrow. Even with the Richmond Hill Centre plan (which adds riders but is independant of the subway extension) still won't add new riders to the system. They'll just be boarding at Richmond Hill now instead of Finch.

 

[unimaginative2]

I hope you're being sarcastic. There will be no new riders with the Richmond hill extension (possibly a slight increase with the York extension if the VCC ever gets built out to full). On the yonge line, however, the same riders that we have today will still be riding it tomorrow. Even with the Richmond Hill Centre plan (which adds riders but is independant of the subway extension) still won't add new riders to the system. They'll just be boarding at Richmond Hill now instead of Finch.

Wait...you actually believe there will be no new riders with the Richmond Hill extension? Aside from the fact that it's been studied and it has been shown that it will, that's just crazy... I'm not quite sure how to explain this, but there's a huge amount of latent demand in that corridor. There is also enormous square footage of new development that is waiting on the subway. The extension will also dramatically speed up trips, thus attracting more riders. Every subway extension the city has ever built has attracted new riders. Look at Sheppard, for example. It moves more than twice as many people as the old bus route, and ridership on parallel routes hasn't gone down either.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Wait...you actually believe there will be no new riders with the Richmond Hill extension? Aside from the fact that it's been studied and it has been shown that it will, that's just crazy... I'm not quite sure how to explain this, but there's a huge amount of latent demand in that corridor. There is also enormous square footage of new development that is waiting on the subway. The extension will also dramatically speed up trips, thus attracting more riders. Every subway extension the city has ever built has attracted new riders. Look at Sheppard, for example. It moves more than twice as many people as the old bus route, and ridership on parallel routes hasn't gone down either.

So your saying that a subway extension would bring more new riders to the system than a wholly new subway line, be it as a relief line or a regular route.

No Sale.

 

[Second_in_pie]

So your saying that a subway extension would bring more new riders to the system than a wholly new subway line, be it as a relief line or a regular route.

No Sale.

Seriously, where are you getting all this from? Unimaginative2 only said that the Richmond Hill extension would bring new riders, and absolutely nothing that would even suggest that a completely new line would bring less new riders.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Both the Spadina and Yonge extensions will see new riders. This is a mathematical certainty.

Okay, I had a brief chat with Mr. Giambrone at the Eglinton open house Wednesday night. Unfortunately, I was on three hours sleep so I sounded grumpy and more confrontational than I would have liked (I humbly apologize), and some of the points I wanted to make were forgotten until after I left, but it was what it was. Anyway, here is what I got out of it, to the best of my memory.

Yonge extension: Currently without funding, and he all but said that if it were up to him, it won't get built. He has no interest in it, and instead of people making that long a trip from Richmond Hill to Union, they should be taking GO Transit (which conveniently overlooks the fact that so many people get off before Union, but whatever).

It's a shame that the typical anti-Yonge extension response is so moronic. No, GO is not at all a substitute for the Yonge extension. I'd be surprised if more than 1% of Yonge riders ride from Richmond Hill to Union. Most people board south of RHC and most get off before Union.

While it's true that most, if not all, of the GO lines need infill stations to make the lines accessible to people other than park'r'kiss'n'riders, every station added to a GO line also reduces its speed and reduces its viability as a subway alternate...there's places where GO won't work.

 

[gweed123]

Seriously, where are you getting all this from? Unimaginative2 only said that the Richmond Hill extension would bring new riders, and absolutely nothing that would even suggest that a completely new line would bring less new riders.

Let's be honest though, if the DRL is built with only 1 or 2 stops between Pape and Union (or King, or Queen, whichever one it ends up being... I'm partial to a Wellington alignment btw, so both King and Union), it will not bring in significant new ridership from previously unserved areas. The bulk of the increase in ridership will be people who are already relatively transit accessible, who chose not to use transit due to crowding, etc (the "I'm not going to wait 3 trains at Bloor-Yonge only to be packed in like a sardine" crowd).

Not saying that the new stations at Gerrard, Queen, and St. Lawrence won't draw some new riders, but the bulk will be the afore-mentioned crowd.

 

[unimaginative2]

Okay, so what you're saying is that the intermediate stations (there will certainly be more than one or two) will attract new riders while significant numbers of existing riders will switch from other overcrowded routes to the new service. Sounds good to me.

 

[gweed123]

Okay, so what you're saying is that the intermediate stations (there will certainly be more than one or two) will attract new riders while significant numbers of existing riders will switch from other overcrowded routes to the new service. Sounds good to me.

Exactly. It will be a RELIEF line. However, there is a danger that the line will in fact be so successful that Pape could become another Bloor-Yonge in terms of transfer congestion, especially if the DRL is extended north of the Danforth.

It's the same principle as adding an extra lane onto a highway. Yes, there is an increase in traffic capacity, but eventually the people that were using other modes or routes will see that that way is now faster, and thus the entire system will reach a new equilibrium.

Who knows, 20 years down the line we may need another DRL running along Queen from Jane to Main St to relieve the DRL from Dundas West to Pape. The bigger you build the funnel, the wider you need to make the spout if you want to keep an efficient flow.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Exactly. It will be a RELIEF line. However, there is a danger that the line will in fact be so successful that Pape could become another Bloor-Yonge in terms of transfer congestion, especially if the DRL is extended north of the Danforth.

It's the same principle as adding an extra lane onto a highway. Yes, there is an increase in traffic capacity, but eventually the people that were using other modes or routes will see that that way is now faster, and thus the entire system will reach a new equilibrium.

Who knows, 20 years down the line we may need another DRL running along Queen from Jane to Main St to relieve the DRL from Dundas West to Pape. The bigger you build the funnel, the wider you need to make the spout if you want to keep an efficient flow.

But all in all, we would be getting more people on transit, which is what we should be striving towards. If keeping our system in check means making more lines, I can totally live with that. We could build a Jarvis Subway, Dufferin LRT, Dundas LRT, King LRT/Transit Mall, Jane Subway or LRT, the list goes on.
Then we'll also have an electrified, metro frequency Richmond Hill line being the mother-of-all Yonge relief lines (would become a very good express line, especially after an Eglinton Station with Subway/LRT, Sheppard, Finch Hydro Corridor Route, and Queen stop. Then there's also an electrified, metro-frequency Georgetown line with stops at Queen and King, which would provide a massive amount of Western Relief. In the end, we'll have to keep building lines. There's nothing wrong with that, and a Jane-Main Subway sounds kinda cool EDIT: And it also rhymes

 

[gweed123]

But all in all, we would be getting more people on transit, which is what we should be striving towards. If keeping our system in check means making more lines, I can totally live with that. We could build a Jarvis Subway, Dufferin LRT, Dundas LRT, King LRT/Transit Mall, Jane Subway or LRT, the list goes on. Then we'll also have an electrified, metro frequency Richmond Hill line being the mother-of-all Yonge relief lines (would become a very good express line, especially after an Eglinton Station with Subway/LRT, Sheppard, Finch Hydro Corridor Route, and Queen stop. Then there's also an electrified, metro-frequency Georgetown line with stops at Queen and King, which would provide a massive amount of Western Relief. In the end, we'll have to keep building lines. There's nothing wrong with that, and a Jane-Main Subway sounds kinda cool

I completely agree. As long as inner-city transit expansion happens at relatively the same rate as suburban expansion, it should go well. The problem with Toronto is that the last subway entering the downtown core (the University subway) opened in 1967. Since then, the only new transit added to downtown has been the Spadina and Harbourfront Streetcars. Hardly keeping pace with the Spadina Subway, Yonge Subway extension, 4 B-D extensions, SRT, Sheppard subway. I'm not saying these projects wern't needed, but adding all that passenger generating capacity without improving transit at the destination is quite short-sighted.

In fact, of the 56 proposed Metrolinx projects, only 14 address anything to do with downtown. And of those 14, only 2 deal with Toronto transit specifically (Waterfront West LRT and DRL, the rest are GO Transit projects). Expanding suburban service for ever and ever may seem like a good idea, but when you don't improve capacity further down the line, you run into problems.

Add to this the fact that the core is going through a nearly unprecedented growth spurt in terms of density, transit improvements in downtown need to happen.

 

[unimaginative2]

Exactly. It will be a RELIEF line. However, there is a danger that the line will in fact be so successful that Pape could become another Bloor-Yonge in terms of transfer congestion, especially if the DRL is extended north of the Danforth.

If it's that successful, great! Isn't that what all the transit advocates want? Extreme overcrowding? Seriously, though, that just means we should build more rapid transit. Toronto is a metro area with 6 million people, two subway lines and one (barely) regional rail line. We're a city of people who want to ride transit, but the options are pretty limited. The DRL will hopefully be built simultaneously with a comprehensive regional rail network. That's a huge increase in capacity that will probably suffice for a good long while. If it's still an issue, there are other approaches that might work. Consider building the DRL with a third track for peak period express service. Build a Queen subway. Use new technology to increase capacity on existing routes. Rebuild the regional rail network so that the trains don't stop only at Union in the downtown core. It all depends on where and why this congestion is occurring.

Also remember that the new station at Pape will be much more modern than the existing Bloor-Yonge transfer and can be designed with significantly higher transfer capacity capacity in mind. The plans I saw had three platforms, like at Sheppard and Yonge.

Downtown is increasing in density, but I think a lot of downtown residents have given up on the TTC because of a combination of high fares and poor local service. The explosion of bikes we see on on the streets isn't people getting out of their cars--it's people getting off the streetcar. That's why 501 Queen ridership is a fraction what it was in the 70s.

 

[lead82]

i agree. Downtown transit service is horribly slow. It is often much faster to walk then to ride ttc downtown! All the streetcar lines should be in their own row!