Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[TheTigerMaster]

i kind of agree. but the argument against that idea is that ppl are supposed to want to use the relief line to save time, if u attempt to replace local service w the subway, u aren't really saving time. I think 700m is way too close for a subway but it shouldnt be too far either. u need to balance between serving the local community while also saving time for the riders coming from the east.

The Relief Line is expected to be far faster than existing routes. For the Relief Line Long in particular, we're looking at trips from Sheppard East to Downtown in a little more than 20 minutes. Trips from Flemington Park to Downtown in a little more than 10 minutes. Trips on the Crosstown East LRT to Downtown via Relief Line will also be much faster than any existing options. Speed is the least of the issues with the current Relief Line proposal.

 

[BurlOak]

It's pretty hard to argue that we can't realistically expect 700 m station spacing when we're building exactly that on Eglinton at this very moment. The downtown portion of the relief line is exactly where that kind of station spacing is needed.

Eglinton is a very expensive example, that will likely not be repeated.
I think the key is station depth. If the line is built by TBM, stations are deeper and more costly, and thus become farther apart to f it the budget. DRL bragging that their tunnels will be deeper than anything Toronto has seen before just means even fewer stations.
If they could go cut-and-cover, than 700m station spacing can be done. It is up to planners, locals, and politicians. If they all insist on deep bore TBM, or if they refuse to even consider cut-and-cover, then they are just saying they don't want stations.

 

[salsa]

There was a nice graphic on the recent UrbanToronto article about the Carlaw alignment, comparing the depth of the relief line vs other subways. I haven't seen it before.

 

[dowlingm]

Tunnelling should be it's own thing, started as early as possible, funded by Toronto...that makes the rest of the schedule almost forced into place...

Crosstown is the complete opposite. The P3 contract requires the whole line to be commissioned together. Even if the yard was at the Kennedy end and it was possible to run trains between Kennedy and Leslie, it probably wouldn't change the start date.

The reality is though that splitting the contract up would probably result in arguments about the tunnel being done wrong or something, with massive change orders. The point of P3 overall build responsibility is that it's up to the consortium to play nice with each other.

 

[Geoff Olynyk]

What does the new alignment mean for the homes at 227–241 Langley? Tunnel is bored, not cut-and-cover, in current plan correct? (Especially because of the depth of the station at Carlaw/Gerrard.) So aside from noise and vibration from construction and train operation, there probably won't be expropriation correct?

 

[dowlingm]

I would agree that a relief line station north of Pape is advisable to intercept traffic coming over the Leaside bridge, not to mention that in disruption scenarios you would not have the combo of passengers transferring between lines as well as hordes coming down the stairs from the bus loop.

That said, I think given the likely cost and return, two south of the valley is pushing it. Specifically, Cosburn and Mortimer are 400m apart. The Centennial site is small and I don't think it is enough to pull the choice down to Mortimer.

As for the hospital, the 322 runs along Cosburn not Mortimer which says to me that's where TTC thinks the action is, and the hospital could be serviced by a reinstatement of the 87B branch if it was felt that a direct connection was required.

One approach could be to ask Centennial to partner on relocating their activities to the NE corner of Cosburn above the new station, creating a sizeable anchor tenant assuming a floorplate of acceptable size could be achieved and a reasonable number of floors negotiated with area residents.

 

[WislaHD]

That one-stop subway would be bypassing one of the densest communities in the city. A one-stop extension would be a mistake.

Agreed.

Not to mention that Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Parks are also designated as priority neighbourhoods, that face some of the highest commuting times to downtown. DRL stations there would cut their commute times somewhere around 60-75%, from 45+ minutes to around 14-18 minutes, heading downtown.

I fully think we should be utilizing these communities as arguments in favour for building the Relief Line to at least Eglinton. @Leo_Chan

It will weaken any RL opposition's argument if they come out as against providing transit access to priority neighbourhoods. Cynical politics sure, but if we want to get this subway built we have to play the game. Plus obviously, stops here make sense and are a great social benefit anyway, and getting more stakeholders behind this subway line is a good thing.

 

[WislaHD]

John Tory did not "abandon" SmartTrack; he is basically done with it. He secured some modest improvements to the rail service in the interests of Torontonians, now he can claim that his mission is accopmlished.

Those of us who follow this stuff know better. Tory failed, utterly.

But let's grant him the grace to say mission accomplished so we can move on from SmartTrack. Any references to SmartTrack in the public domain is only going to hurt future studies.

 

[WislaHD]

Apologies for triple post, in hindsight should have just done one.

That said, I think given the likely cost and return, two south of the valley is pushing it. Specifically, Cosburn and Mortimer are 400m apart. The Centennial site is small and I don't think it is enough to pull the choice down to Mortimer.

Agreed that Cosburn and Mortimer is too small. That is why:

and: Gerrard, Danforth, Mortimer, Gamble, Overlea @Thorncliffe Pk E, Gateway N and Eglinton for the north-south segment.

That's 14 stations, including 4 interchanges, so really only 10 unique stations. With stop frequency like this no parallel bus or streetcar service would be required.

This. Stations at Mortimer and Gamble is good stop spacing. Utilize the station boxes well to provide better coverage and access within East York.

Northern station box of Gamble can reach Torrens Ave (short walk away from O'Connor) and the southern edge can reach Cosburn.

At Mortimer, the station box can reach Sammon Ave to the south, which is one of the significant east-west local streets in the area.

That is around 660m stop spacing

While all of that is true, it has to be said that American cities are a pretty low bar for comparison. Look outside the US and you'll see lots of cities smaller than Toronto with more people riding the subways. Like Montreal for example. Or Prague.

Outside of North America, they build their downtown core subway lines with even closer stop spacing than Bloor-Danforth.

 

[salsa]

Those of us who follow this stuff know better. Tory failed, utterly.

But let's grant him the grace to say mission accomplished so we can move on from SmartTrack. Any references to SmartTrack in the public domain is only going to hurt future studies.

Yeah, about that...

In the public meeting, I don't think there was one single mention by city staff of GO RER. Instead they kept referring to a "SmartTrack station", and how the DRL "connects to SmartTrack". It's so infuriating that we still haven't moved on from this, that somehow it still lives on inside the planning departments at city hall and Metrolinx.

 

[jaybe]

1.5-2km apart belongs in deep suburbia, not the epicentre of the city.

Like I've said before, reasonable stop spacing would be: University, Yonge, Jarvis, Parliament, Sumach, Broadview, Carlaw for the west-east segment...

and: Gerrard, Danforth, Mortimer, Gamble, Overlea @Thorncliffe Pk E, Gateway N and Eglinton for the north-south segment.

That's 14 stations, including 4 interchanges, so really only 10 unique stations. With stop frequency like this no parallel bus or streetcar service would be required.

I work at King and Parliament and regularly walk the area. I would suggest that one less station is needed west of the Don River. Stops at Sumach, Sherbourne, Yonge/Church would be 900M apart and would service the residents, burgeoning employment and entertainment (primarily at the Distillery) in the area. A stop at University (that could also be named City Hall) would be 600M from Yonge.

The same applies north of the Danforth. A single station at Cosburn would be 1.1km north of the Danforth.

Stops at Overlea/Thorncliffe, Gateway and Eglinton make sense.

The savings from building two less and largely unnecessary stations would be better used ensuring the DRL gets to Eglinton, asap.

 

[crs1026]

In the public meeting, I don't think there was one single mention by city staff of GO RER. Instead they kept referring to a "SmartTrack station", and how the DRL "connects to SmartTrack". It's so infuriating that we still haven't moved on from this, that somehow it still lives on inside the planning departments at city hall and Metrolinx.

This will continue. It's a little bit about political masters, but more about who pays for what.

- Paul

 

[M II A II R II K]

There would also be no incidents at track level since you would expect all the new stations would have platform doors.

And as said before the first phase should include Eglinton since Eglinton Yonge will need relieving the day it opens, and people from North York would head south to the DRL instead of West to the Yonge Line and not use it at all.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I'm not sure I support Carlaw. Show me how it's better straight on Pape

 

[Forgotten]

For the folks who expect to see an appropriate study detailing the cost delta between Carlaw and Pape alignments I say don't get your hopes up. As soon as clowncil votes to appease the NIMBIDIOTS on Pape, all work on that file will cease operations and taxpayers will not get to see a fair comparison much as it was when clowncil voted for McCowan and Queen over looking at other options.

All due respect to jungleboy.ca who clearly lives on Pape but saying $150 million is nothing but a small price to pay for appeasement is wrong. That's getting close to enough money to pay for another station at Lawrence east or if you prefer at Parliament Street.