Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Streetcars are not rapid, just higher-order.
It is not, but it is a reminder that purely comparing km-length of rapid transit is not always the most appropriate measure of comparison.

We have non-rapid higher-order transit service that does more and carry more people on a daily basis than many of these so-called rapid transit lines.

(And note, this is not a vindication of our streetcar network, but probably a critique of other LRT networks in this continent)
 
We don't need an express service.

Why don't we need express service? Aside from how expensive it is the biggest problem with public transit in Toronto is that it takes forever to travel mid/long distances, prompting more people to drive.
 
The Scarborough stretch is of Line 2 is expressesque and can be split off from Line 2 and be extended downtown on a separate express route to get there.
 
Why don't we need express service? Aside from how expensive it is the biggest problem with public transit in Toronto is that it takes forever to travel mid/long distances, prompting more people to drive.

Increasing trip length by say one minute due to addition of two stations isn't going to prompt people to drive. If it did, people would have been driving from NYCC to downtown.

AoD
 
Why don't we need express service? Aside from how expensive it is the biggest problem with public transit in Toronto is that it takes forever to travel mid/long distances, prompting more people to drive.

The quick and simple answer is that we are not building a service to shuttle people from their homes to the business district, we are building a service to connect people to destinations throughout downtown (including the business district).

The secondary answer is that we are replacing a local service (the streetcar) with rapid transit. It would defeat the purpose of building this subway if a significant portion of people still require a local service to get to their destinations, or are inconvenienced by having to walk to the King streetcar in order to reach their destination.

And just so we are clear, we are talking about Bloor-Danforth (or a tad wider) level of stop-spacing. This is not excessively local stop-spacing like a streetcar or a bus, wouldn't inconvenience people aiming to go end-to-end like Alvin mentioned above, and would actually be greater stop-spacing than most downtown subway lines throughout the world. (Which the norm is typically around 500m while B-D is 750-850m.)
 
In the interrim following Phase 1, or in the long run with the full-build out of the DRL?

Both. The 501 means too much in terms of "heritage" value. However, I could see the frequency being reduced du to the subway. Besides, Queen won't have a subway from like Sherbourne to Neville Park and from Roncevalles to Long Branch
 
Increasing trip length by say one minute due to addition of two stations isn't going to prompt people to drive. If it did, people would have been driving from NYCC to downtown.

AoD

Does it add only one minute to the entire system? I thought it was more. Like, you'd save more than just a minute by getting rid of Summerhill station. Especially in rush hours.
 
It is not, but it is a reminder that purely comparing km-length of rapid transit is not always the most appropriate measure of comparison.

We have non-rapid higher-order transit service that does more and carry more people on a daily basis than many of these so-called rapid transit lines.

(And note, this is not a vindication of our streetcar network, but probably a critique of other LRT networks in this continent)

I'm getting deja vu... I feel like we might have had this debate before :p

According to the Pembina Institute's definition:
1. Separated from traffic
2. Priority signalling
3. All-day, two-way service
4. Maximum wait of 10 minutes during peak times
5. Maximum wait of 15 minutes during off-peak times
6. Optimal spacing of stops and stations
7. Network connectivity
8. Off-board fare collection and platform-level boarding

Pembina also uses some other measures of the network's effectiveness which are more useful:
-% of population within 1 km of rapid transit
-rides per capita

While I agree that King (or King - Wellington - King) would make a better route for the Relief line, local service will be a challenge no matter which route is selected. We cannot expect the Relief stations to be as closely spaced as stations on the sentral section of BD line; that would be way too expensive these days.

It is best to accept that the Relief line stations will be 1 to 2 km apart, and retain the streetcars both on King and Queen in order to provide the local service.

The quick and simple answer is that we are not building a service to shuttle people from their homes to the business district, we are building a service to connect people to destinations throughout downtown (including the business district).

The secondary answer is that we are replacing a local service (the streetcar) with rapid transit. It would defeat the purpose of building this subway if a significant portion of people still require a local service to get to their destinations, or are inconvenienced by having to walk to the King streetcar in order to reach their destination.

And just so we are clear, we are talking about Bloor-Danforth (or a tad wider) level of stop-spacing. This is not excessively local stop-spacing like a streetcar or a bus, wouldn't inconvenience people aiming to go end-to-end like Alvin mentioned above, and would actually be greater stop-spacing than most downtown subway lines throughout the world. (Which the norm is typically around 500m while B-D is 750-850m.)
In the interrim following Phase 1, or in the long run with the full-build out of the DRL?

The first phase of the DRL, which only goes under Queen for about 2 km, will definitely not replace the 501. The full downtown U would definitely replace the 501 downtown segments. Any time savings you get from being closer to your destination are lost by the additional travel and waiting time due to the fact that the streetcar will enter that transit death spiral of lower ridership -> reduced service -> lower ridership. The Bloor-Danforth line didn't just eliminate the Bloor streetcar, it also ended the Harbord and Dupont streetcar services north/south of it by absorbing the ridership.

It's also a waste of resources to run a parallel service directly on top... I picture that the 501 will either terminate at each end of the DRL for people to transfer, allowing the TTC to focus on improving headway management in the shorter segments, or it will go south to that fancy new transit mall on King.
 
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Does it add only one minute to the entire system? I thought it was more. Like, you'd save more than just a minute by getting rid of Summerhill station. Especially in rush hours.

30s dwell time is fairly standard - and i'd say it's often less even - though you have to account for acceleration/deceleration for the stop. As to adding time during rush - is it because of the station - or is it because of crowded tracks further down the line? Somehow I don't think it is the stop that is causing the problem with delays.

AoD
 
Is there an efficient way to keep the Queen streetcar where the Subway isn't under so that they route down to King and back up when the subway is no longer under? A King transit mall would need more cars and "should" be able to handle more.
 
While I agree that King (or King - Wellington - King) would make a better route for the Relief line, local service will be a challenge no matter which route is selected. We cannot expect the Relief stations to be as closely spaced as stations on the sentral section of BD line; that would be way too expensive these days.

It is best to accept that the Relief line stations will be 1 to 2 km apart, and retain the streetcars both on King and Queen in order to provide the local service.

I wasn't suggesting overbuilding the number of stations downtown. I was only adding to your point about the majority needing to use a bus at the outer ends by suggesting the planners are fools (or more apt, puppets) to also force transfers to/from feeders and/or long walks at the inner end.

The station at Sherbourne-Queen would be next to Schnitzel Queen and dive bars. How many customer trips do those businesses generate? I would be surprised if it amounted to more than a dozen a day. Now consider a station at Sherbourne-King with St. James campus within 200m and the King east office cluster on top of the station. How many customer trips would those generate per day? 1000x more? If you had to choose between clogging 600m of scarce and narrow inner city sidewalks for 12 people a day versus 12,000, it shouldn't be hard. Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Why should 1000x the people have to walk 5-20x the distance and overload city sidewalks just to appease Tory's ego?

Toronto isn't doing so great in utility either. The first east-west subway was too far north, creating the transfer mess at Yonge-Bloor. Most of the city feeds into a single subway line, which is overloaded. Rapid transit coverage in central Toronto is hopelessly inadequate. Rail lines aren't being used to their full potential (to be fair, RER and fare integration will go a long way to fixing that if fully implemented). Different transit agencies operate in their own silos. The DRL downtown stations will be too far apart. Eglinton trains will have to stop at red lights on the surface portions. I'll stop there but you get the idea.

So too will the second one be too far north. Now that Cherry/Distillery station has been all but ruled as being unfeasible, maybe all of the ScamTrack myths (some promoted by you) that came with it can die too.
 

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