Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Okay we need to market this line with a new name :
How about the QDL oh that won't work people will call it the Cutey line (say it slowly) or how about the "DQ" line which stands for Don Mills & Queen (skip the M) & maybe get Dairy Queen to subsidize some of cost !
Think about it every time you get on you will be have a craving for an ice cream cone !
Just a thought.

I've always thought it could be called the "Queen-Pape" subway. Similar to "Bloor-Danforth" type of naming methodology. Or you could just call it by its prospective "TTC line number" - "Line 3, Line 7, or Line 8" depending on other projects completions?
 
If you bought $15,000 in taxable "stuff" per year, that'd cost $75/year extra. A cup of coffee at Tim Hortons would cost a penny extra. Considering how this would serve millions of commuters per day, cutting commute times by more than an hour a day in many cases, I think this tax would be a relatively easy sell.

What has to be sold is the fact that all of the sales tax revenue goes to the DRL and nothing else!

Here's a link to a list of large American cities with sales taxes.

Of America's most populous cities, the following impose the highest combined state, county, and local sales tax rates:

  1. Seattle, WA – 9.6% (0.10%)
  2. Oakland, CA – 9.5% (0.75%)
  3. Chicago, IL – 9.25% (10.25% as of Jan. 1, 2016) (1.25%)
  4. Memphis, TN – 9.25% (0.00%)
  5. Nashville, TN – 9.25% (0.00%)
  6. Los Angeles, CA – 9.0% (0.25%)
  7. Long Beach, CA – 9.0% (0.25%)
  8. New Orleans, LA – 9.0% (0.00%)
  9. New York, NY – 8.88% (4.88%)
  10. San Jose, CA – 8.75% (tie) (0.50%)
  11. San Francisco, CA – 8.75% (tie) (0.25%)

Ontario (and other provinces) should at the very least, dedicate a portion to the municipalities under their control, and actually say that.

The municipal sales tax in many of these cities isn't negligible. Tulsa has a 3% municipal sales tax! A 3% sales tax in Toronto would pay for gold paved roads.

Loading on muni taxes is easier in a country with no federal sales tax. Oklahoma's state rate is 4.5%. Sales tax is, like Land Transfer Tax, pro-cyclical so there's only so much scope to push Toronto's finances further in that direction without risking catastrophe.

Regarding the sales tax discussion, I found this poll on Spacing indicated 75% of Greater Toronto residents would support a dedicated transit tax: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...port-0-5-sales-tax-for-transit-poll-1.1200142

In the 905 support was an average 0f 70%. They didn't explicitly mention percentage support in Toronto, but from the provided data we can calculate that approximately 80% of Torontonians indicated approval for the proposal.
 
Loading on muni taxes is easier in a country with no federal sales tax. Oklahoma's state rate is 4.5%. Sales tax is, like Land Transfer Tax, pro-cyclical so there's only so much scope to push Toronto's finances further in that direction without risking catastrophe.

Yes, we should not conveniently leave out this fact and only focus on municipal taxes in those cities. 0.5% more may not sound much but it is difficult politically.
 
Make it all the towns and cities in Ontario will get their 0.5% on sales within their borders?

How much would the Town of Caledon get per year? Probablly, not much.

I'd prefer it be delivered to the regional level, not the municipal level. Municipalities already have predictable revenue streams available. Metrolinx does not.
 
I'd prefer it be delivered to the regional level, not the municipal level. Municipalities already have predictable revenue streams available. Metrolinx does not.

The entire point of municipal sales tax would be so that municipalities have a predictable revenue stream to build transit, rather than having to depend on the province who is incredibly fickle and has a propensity to under-invest in the Toronto. The City shouldn't have to beg to the province every time we want to build major infrastructure. We're a city of 3 million people; we don't need yet another middle man standing between us and our infrastructure goals. It's the only way I can envision Toronto coming close to building out its transit network and addressing the TCHC backlog.
 
The entire point of municipal sales tax would be so that municipalities have a predictable revenue stream to build transit, rather than having to depend on the province who is incredibly fickle and has a propensity to under-invest in the Toronto. The City shouldn't have to beg to the province every time we want to build major infrastructure. It's the only way I can envision Toronto coming close to building out its transit network and addressing the TCHC backlog.

But my point is that the municipalities, particularly Toronto, already have revenue streams, and the potential for more (via the City of Toronto Act) at their disposal. The fact that they choose not to use them isn't the Province's fault. Toronto just doesn't have the political guts to enact any of them.

And giving Metrolinx a stable revenue stream would get it out of the Province's "fickle" hands too, since Metrolinx goes hat in hand to the Province every time they want to build something.

IMO, major infrastructure that has a regional or city-wide purpose should be funded at the regional level (ex: RER, DRL), while infrastructure that has more of a local purpose (ex: East Bayfront LRT) should be funded by the individual municipality.
 
And giving Metrolinx a stable revenue stream would get it out of the Province's "fickle" hands too, since Metrolinx goes hat in hand to the Province every time they want to build something.

Queen's Park approves the major infrastructure Metrolinx builds. That dedicated ML revenue stream and the infrastructure it builds would still be subject to the whims of QP politicians. How about we get rid of one level of politics?

But my point is that the municipalities, particularly Toronto, already have revenue streams, and the potential for more (via the City of Toronto Act) at their disposal. The fact that they choose not to use them isn't the Province's fault. Toronto just doesn't have the political guts to enact any of them.

As has been pointed out before, those revenue tools are a joke. $40 Million/year from an entertainment tax won't put a dent in Toronto's infrastructure shortfall. All the tools in the City of Toronto Act generate similarly little revenue. Some of those taxes cost more to collect than the revenue they'd generate. The tools in the CoTA are horribly inefficient at raising raising the funds for capital infrastructure.

IMO, major infrastructure that has a regional or city-wide purpose should be funded at the regional level (ex: RER, DRL), while infrastructure that has more of a local purpose (ex: East Bayfront LRT) should be funded by the individual municipality.

Even these LRT lines run $1 Billion a piece. That's too pricey for Toronto to self fund, even with the revenue tools in the City of Toronto Act. With three taxes, a gas tax, entertainment tax, alcohol tax, $5 Billion of light rail would take 40 years to fund. Toronto needs more than $5 Billion of investments over 40 years. This isn't going to work.

And ideally the province would fund the regional infrastructure, but in the real world that's not going to happen. A new party could come in and cancel all the transit expansion (as they usually do). If we're to have any hope of actually getting this stuff built, Toronto needs access to its own revenue streams that won't be in upheaval every time there's a provincial election. If not, all these lines we talk about will remain just lines on a map.
 
Queen's Park approves the major infrastructure Metrolinx builds. That dedicated ML revenue stream and the infrastructure it builds would still be subject to the whims of QP politicians. How about we get rid of one level of politics?

And money given to the municipalities would be at the whims of municipal politicians. That's gone swimmingly so far in Toronto.

At least under this model, regionally important projects wouldn't be at the whim of municipal politicians. Brampton being a perfect example too.

As has been pointed out before, those revenue tools are a joke. $40 Million/year from an entertainment tax won't put a dent in Toronto's infrastructure shortfall. All the tools in the City of Toronto Act generate similarly little revenue. Some of those taxes cost more to collect than the revenue they'd generate. The tools in the CoTA are horribly inefficient at raising raising the funds for capital infrastructure.

Alone they wouldn't, but combined together, including road tolls, would make a pretty sizeable dent, especially considering that most of the projects that Toronto would need to fund under this model would be local LRT projects, which usually run a couple hundred million a pop. Spread out over the life cycle of a project, that's not a hugely burdensome investment.

Even these LRT lines run $1 Billion a piece. That's too pricey for Toronto to self fund, even with the revenue tools in the City of Toronto Act. With three taxes, a gas tax, entertainment tax, alcohol tax, $5 Billion of light rail would take 40 years to fund. Toronto needs more than $5 Billion of investments over 40 years. This isn't going to work.

The Transit City lines are more expensive because of their size and complexity. It also costs a lot more to get a network started than it does to add onto it. Take Finch West for example: an extension from Humber College to Woodbine wouldn't break the bank. Or a Sheppard East LRT spur to STC. Or a connector between the Queensway ROW and Exhibition. These are projects that could easily be funded through municipal revenue tools funded over a 5-10 year period.

And ideally the province would fund the regional infrastructure, but in the real world that's not going to happen. A new party could come in and cancel all the transit expansion (as they usually do).

If we're to have any hope of actually getting this stuff built, Toronto needs access to its own revenue streams that won't be in upheaval every time there's a provincial election. If not, all these lines we talk about will remain just lines on a map.

Yes, because Toronto's transit politics are a bedrock of stability ;).

In all seriousness though, a more financially independent Metrolinx would be much less at the whim of a change in government. It would take some pretty big guts to pull that 0.5% away from them once it's been implemented. It's spending without looking like the Province is spending. Nobody bats an eye when gas tax money is used to fund a transit project, because it isn't seen as "new money".

Yes, a change in government may result in reduced 'extra' spending, but that 0.5% would still form a pretty good base for which to continue some projects. That's true for a change in government at any level though.
 
How about we get rid of one level of politics?

Only one ???????

A new party could come in and cancel all the transit expansion (as they usually do). If we're to have any hope of actually getting this stuff built, Toronto needs access to its own revenue streams that won't be in upheaval every time there's a provincial election.

Self-funding is no guarantee that this won't continue.... City Council has done its share of reversing decisions. But I agree with your basic point. No one should have any illusions that Wynne is collecting revenue in Windsor to fund Toronto's transit. At any level, government accountability and political behaviour works best when the level of government that spends money is the same level that raises it. Canada has polished redustribution of tax revenue beyond any constructive purpose.

- Paul
 

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