Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

CapitalSeven said:
I agree. I have tramped through enough world-class 700 foot transfers to know that you don't build them unless you have to. But I still think Queen is the wrong choice. I reviewed the station usage numbers recently and of the four east-west "streetcar streets" the Queen-Osgoode pair has the lowest patronage. This line should be going through the core beneath Wellington or King.
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Do you work downtown? Go to First Canadian Place and stand at the connecting door between it and TD Centre either morning or evening. Watch the rush of people. Then consider ADDING to that by having a DRL station at Wellington. Then go up in an elevator and chat to Goldmans or TD or some other big operation along King or Wellington and ask them how they feel about the contractors who built Spadina Line stations mucking around with the utility lines in the King-Wellington area and watch them blanche.
 
dowlingm said:
Do you work downtown? Go to First Canadian Place and stand at the connecting door between it and TD Centre either morning or evening. Watch the rush of people. Then consider ADDING to that by having a DRL station at Wellington. Then go up in an elevator and chat to Goldmans or TD or some other big operation along King or Wellington and ask them how they feel about the contractors who built Spadina Line stations mucking around with the utility lines in the King-Wellington area and watch them blanche.
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To be fair, I think we've seen the last of the TTC's current procurement and project management process. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the DRL were done as a design-build-maintain contract, like in Ottawa (minus the vehicles). Having everything under one contract would decrease the likelihood of that happening, since it would be the consortium's asses on the line if they didn't do their due dilligence or were negligent in checking before they dug.
 
dowlingm said:
Do you work downtown? Go to First Canadian Place and stand at the connecting door between it and TD Centre either morning or evening. Watch the rush of people. Then consider ADDING to that by having a DRL station at Wellington. Then go up in an elevator and chat to Goldmans or TD or some other big operation along King or Wellington and ask them how they feel about the contractors who built Spadina Line stations mucking around with the utility lines in the King-Wellington area and watch them blanche.
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So we shouldn't build a subway where there are people? Instead let's build where there is not the current demand? And little room for growth since most of the area north of Queen is government (Old City Hall, NPS, Osgoode).

We are building a relief line since a large portion of these people transfer at Yonge and get off at King, St Andrew or Union and schlep to work. But we shouldn't shift these off to a relief line but create a fantasy line for politicians to get to work quicker (in the unlikely case that their car breaks down and they can't use the free parking).
 
muller877 said:
So we shouldn't build a subway where there are people? Instead let's build where there is not the current demand?
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Little current demand? A station at Queen will encourage DRL usage by those currently using Dundas. Dundas station ridership is significantly higher than King (or Queen) station ridership.
 
nfitz said:
Little current demand? A station at Queen will encourage DRL usage by those currently using Dundas. Dundas station ridership is significantly higher than King (or Queen) station ridership.
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How many people will get off at Queens Park to walk outside to get Japanese cheesecake? It's a 10-15 minute walk. Instead they will continue to transfer at Yonge.

2014 data:
Union - 125,220
King & St Andrew - 117,060
Queen and Osgoode - 76,890
Dundas & St Patrick - 108,280
College & Queens Park - 87,600

If I save 10 minutes on the DRL but have to walk 10 minutes at the end, it is human nature to avoid the walk. And there are 30% more people getting off at King St vs Queen St.

Ideally the DRL goes via King. And when that gets busy they build another subway at Dundas....where there is demand not "near" the actual demand.
 
muller877 said:
If I save 10 minutes on the DRL but have to walk 10 minutes at the end, it is human nature to avoid the walk. And there are 30% more people getting off at King St vs Queen St.
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It's only 400 metres from King to Queen - 3 blocks. 5 minutes. And about 5 minutes to Dundas. But Dundas to King is a 10 minute walk. So you split the difference, or else you fail to put the subway where there is the maximum demand; which I assume the modelling will demonstrate.

If someone is going significantly south of King, they can take GO or Smartrack - perhaps changing at Gerrard station.
 
I do work in the Financial District, and have in several different towers in the area. There is no doubt to me that Queen Street is the best option specifically for the Financial District, despite service to the area being cited as why many prefer a King or Wellington alignment.

There is significant office density right from Front up to Queen. It is not concentrated at King Street - look at the significant number of new towers (with potentially more to come) in the Adelaide Street corridor. The entire district is within walking distance of Queen, just as all of it is within walking distance of Union Station.

By placing the line at Queen, not only do you serve the areas to the north, but you even out the usage of pedestrian infrastructure in the financial district itself.

The problem with pedestrian flows during rush hour should not be underestimated. Try walking towards Union Station at 8:30 am or away from it at 5:00 pm - one feels like salmon swimming upstream. By putting the DRL at Queen, at least we can make use of sidewalk and PATH capacity in both directions.

If someone works right at King Station or St. Andrew, or if they work in South Core, and they don't want to walk, they can transfer at Queen and make use of excess capacity on Line 1 south of there. The usage maps posted upthread make it clear (and from my own anecdotal experience, they are correct) that the worst overcrowding is between Bloor and Dundas.
 
The benefit of connected directly to the Eaton Centre must also be emphasized. It's the single biggest trip generator in Downtown Toronto, and very likely the entire GTA. It's morning AM rush hour demand may not be very high, but throughout the rest of the day there will be demand to the Eaton Centre.
 
muller877 said:
How many people will get off at Queens Park to walk outside to get Japanese cheesecake? It's a 10-15 minute walk. Instead they will continue to transfer at Yonge.

2014 data:
Union - 125,220
King & St Andrew - 117,060
Queen and Osgoode - 76,890
Dundas & St Patrick - 108,280
College & Queens Park - 87,600

If I save 10 minutes on the DRL but have to walk 10 minutes at the end, it is human nature to avoid the walk. And there are 30% more people getting off at King St vs Queen St.

Ideally the DRL goes via King. And when that gets busy they build another subway at Dundas....where there is demand not "near" the actual demand.
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They're not going to build another subway under Dundas though. The DRL is a once in a lifetime opportunity to alleviate most of the downtown core. It must be built where we can get the most mileage out of it. Queen is the midway point between King and Dundas ergo a Queen DRL will naturally be 76,890 in addition to a sizable percentage of 117, 060 and 108, 280.

Rest assured if the walk from Queen to either Dundas or King is considered to be too far, then the walk to Dundas from King or vice versa will definitely be too far for most to walk.
 
Ottawan said:
The problem with pedestrian flows during rush hour should not be underestimated. Try walking towards Union Station at 8:30 am or away from it at 5:00 pm - one feels like salmon swimming upstream. By putting the DRL at Queen, at least we can make use of sidewalk and PATH capacity in both directions.

If someone works right at King Station or St. Andrew, or if they work in South Core, and they don't want to walk, they can transfer at Queen and make use of excess capacity on Line 1 south of there. The usage maps posted upthread make it clear (and from my own anecdotal experience, they are correct) that the worst overcrowding is between Bloor and Dundas.
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There's no such thing as directions in sidewalk and PATH capacity. You either push your way through or get out of the way. Your second idea is as well thought out as having the unnecessary transfer at Kennedy. It's a good way to kill ridership and growth and jobs.
 
Forgotten said:
There's no such thing as directions in sidewalk and PATH capacity. You either push your way through or get out of the way.
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There is very much such thing as PATH capacity - there is a reason why they built the Northwest PATH. As to transfers - as long as you don't have to pay again, subway transfers are most benign to ridership - no one talks about not taking the Bloor line because they have to transfer from Yonge to get to where they need to go, period.

AoD
 
Building the DRL under Queen is going to be a disaster for constructions for a decade. It would be a slot smarter if they actually dug the line under Richmond and just had the stations exit towards Queen, which is less that 70m away. I'm sure it would be cheaper to dig the tunnel under a one way street than one under a tram line. We'd have to reroute the Queen tram for 10 years during construction.

Also, I think it's a big mistake ending the first phase of DRL at University. If phase 1 is being built it needs to go all the way to Liberty Village. That neighbourhood is dying for rapid transit. Sure they have the Exhibition GO but the service is not frequent enough and the fare to Union is too steep.
 
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