Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

As an appraiser I feel a lot of people clearly don't understand property rights in Canada. Also, people clearly don't understand fair market value, and fee simple ownership. It would take some time to break it all down, but I do feel we can be both sympathetic to those owners having their properties expropriated, which is and has been legal here for a long time, as it has been in most western countries, (eminent domain in the USA for instance) while also recognizing the facts around one's fair market value or as some people have put it, "fair compensation".

You value based on the highest and best use always. The highest and best use in this location is still SFD housing, so you can't expect crazy compensation pretending the property is selling based on having an MTSA already in place nearby.
You then compare to other similar properties in the vicinity that sold at the taking date. (effective date).
You then back that value up using a cost approach (Replacement cost new less depreciation of the structures, plus the land value.)
To be fair, the comparison approach will trump any cost approach because estimating depreciation is often difficult, and subjective, and there aren't a lot of clean single family housing land sales around.

At the end of the day, the test of a good appraisal is whether the value appears reasonable. If you were to sell the houses at the taking date, for the indicated value, and that appears similar to other sale prices nearby, you did a decent job.

There is nothing communist or totalitarian about this process, everyone needs to chill out. Those expropriating, in my experience, would typically consider hardships to the homeowners as well, and the appraiser might consider that also if directed (thus a higher than market value result).
I'm not going to comment on whether MX needed to expropriate here, only trying to lessen the outrage and turn the volume down a bit.

Hope that helps, please enjoy the valium I have left on each of your chairs.
 
UrbanAffair said:
Hope that helps, please enjoy the valium I have left on each of your chairs.
Click to expand...

All helpful detail - Despite the press spin(s), I'm confident that ML is playing (mostly) within the lines of the legal expropriation process. And no transit will get build without some expropriation, so somebody will feel hard done by, but that isn't "unfair".

The test of any system or process however shouldn’t be simply "the system is working as intended, and the intent was reasonable, so the result must be just and fair".

Systems and processes that are followed properly do sometimes still spit out undesirable results, and it's entirely reasonable to look at the result rather than simply the compliance with process. (And legally, courts are all over the map over whether demonstrating correct process is sufficient, or whether the result is judged for its effect even after correct process).

I don't know how often government spins off land that it had previously expropriated - maybe that's common, but to me that's what makes this an undesired result. If the properties were taken to put a subway station or some other continuing public installation on them, most reasonable people would accept the outcome. But in this case ML will turn around and spin off the properties. That seems like a less mainstream application of the process, which maybe demands some deviation in how the case is treated.

- Paul
 
Last edited:
Today at the future West Don crossing whatever this is (bridge caison/pier/crane site/something) south of the Science Centre
1000022351.jpg
1000022352.jpg
 
Flew over to get a better look at the foundation things.

Anyone know if they're for a bridge, a crane or a transmission tower?

All I know for sure is that you can see from this overhead shot that it is DIRECTLY underneath current high voltage lines. So something will have to be moved either way.

DJI_20240901072214_0005_D.jpg


Nice to see the valley has greened up despite all the clear cutting in March.

DJI_20240901072528_0015_D.jpg


And two other shots from nearby. Everything is so pretty in early morning light.

DJI_20240901073234_0017_D.jpg
DJI_20240901073433_0027_D.jpg
 
Last edited:
UrbanAffair said:
As an appraiser I feel a lot of people clearly don't understand property rights in Canada. Also, people clearly don't understand fair market value, and fee simple ownership. It would take some time to break it all down, but I do feel we can be both sympathetic to those owners having their properties expropriated, which is and has been legal here for a long time, as it has been in most western countries, (eminent domain in the USA for instance) while also recognizing the facts around one's fair market value or as some people have put it, "fair compensation".

You value based on the highest and best use always. The highest and best use in this location is still SFD housing, so you can't expect crazy compensation pretending the property is selling based on having an MTSA already in place nearby.
You then compare to other similar properties in the vicinity that sold at the taking date. (effective date).
You then back that value up using a cost approach (Replacement cost new less depreciation of the structures, plus the land value.)
To be fair, the comparison approach will trump any cost approach because estimating depreciation is often difficult, and subjective, and there aren't a lot of clean single family housing land sales around.

At the end of the day, the test of a good appraisal is whether the value appears reasonable. If you were to sell the houses at the taking date, for the indicated value, and that appears similar to other sale prices nearby, you did a decent job.

There is nothing communist or totalitarian about this process, everyone needs to chill out. Those expropriating, in my experience, would typically consider hardships to the homeowners as well, and the appraiser might consider that also if directed (thus a higher than market value result).
I'm not going to comment on whether MX needed to expropriate here, only trying to lessen the outrage and turn the volume down a bit.

Hope that helps, please enjoy the valium I have left on each of your chairs.
Click to expand...

The issue really is that "highest and best use" doesn't seem to reflect replacement value.

"Can I replicate my experience of living here by using the money I'm getting for expropriation?" is the most important but also the most difficult proposition, especially for a long time resident forcibly uprooted. There is no accounting for the history and life experiences and associations, especially in this era of Toronto where opportunities for you to move close to where you have lived are very rare, and those few that are available likely cost more than what you were paid or are totally different living configurations.

What frustrates people is that in the corporate world this financial concept does exist, it's called "goodwill," a measure of the value of a business that cannot be quantified, but simply the value of "the brand".
People have that integrated into a similar value in their homes, but that is never taken into account on expropriation. "You can always find somewhere else like this" is actually kind of totalitarian because you literally cannot do that.
 
Last edited:
hawc said:
Anyone know if they're for a bridge, a crane or a transmission tower?

All I know for sure is that you can see from this overhead shot that it is DIRECTLY underneath current high voltage lines. So something will have to be moved either way.
Click to expand...
If the elevated line is coming over from south of the OSC this prep work here isn't making a whole lot of sense. Part of the confusion is there appears to be a quite bit of anti-erosion work going around the Seton park bit too (I was around here today...no pics, see @PL1 's contribution from Friday instead). So yeah, I'm not making any heads or tails of this either. >.<

...also, access to the archery grounds seems to have been cut-off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PL1
UtakataNoAnnex said:
If the elevated line is coming over from south of the OSC this prep work here isn't making a whole lot of sense. Part of the confusion is there appears to be a quite bit of anti-erosion work going around the Seton park bit too (I was around here today...no pics, see @PL1 's contribution from Friday instead). So yeah, I'm not making any heads or tails of this either. >.<

...also, access to the archery grounds seems to have been cut-off.
Click to expand...
I believe it's still accessible from the south, going around the fenced off works partially under the hydro lines. I've seen people's walking north carrying archery equipment
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top