Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Honestly the "reasons" as to why the Ontario Line apparently sucks so much have completely flied over my head. The idea that the whole project is bad and that it should be canceled and sent back to the drawing board is the only truly insane position in this discussion when this city is so starved for transit. It's not like this line is yet another ill-conceived "light rapid transit" route that Metrolinx typically likes to plaster everywhere , it will instead be an extremely modern grade-separated automated metro line. Was the glorious "Relief line" going to be automated? Was it going to have platform screen doors? (Sorry, I'm not old enough to remember.) Trust me, I hate the provincial leadership for all the same reasons you do, but I kind of feel like the "not my guys train" syndrome is really taking effect here. Has the relief line been built in the 15 years the Liberals have been in power? No. Going into the minutia of exactly where the station building is (which I will admit, according to you, might not be perfect!) and claiming this is one of the reasons why the whole thing should be scrapped to delay this line even further? That is mental. Maybe I'm just not seeing something blatantly obvious. Can somebody explain it to me like I'm five years old because otherwise I don't see it.
 
kEiThZ said:
The time to argue about Metrolinx's design was 1-2 years ago. Not when they're preparing the site for construction.
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Was Metrolinx's design even available 1 to 2 years ago? I only recall seeing it sometime last year in those renders and that's when people started asking questions about the trees.
 
kEiThZ said:
Same lot fought the Scarborough subway for years. Whatever the merits of that argument (and there are many), at a certain point it starts to look less like genuine concern for public well-being than broad based opposition to development. The time to argue about Metrolinx's design was 1-2 years ago. Not when they're preparing the site for construction.
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I don't recall anyone protesting to save anything on the route of the Scarborough Subway.

What I do remember, and very well, is the denizens of Scarborough decrying the "latte drinking downtown liberal elites" for denying them good quality transit because they suggested an LRT drop-in for the SRT instead of the subway.

kEiThZ said:
That only makes it worse. So these people aren't personally impacted, but think their opinion should be able to hold a major regional transit project hostage? Imagine the precedent of giving into this now, with this viewpoint...... And you can bet that everybody in government, outside of a few city councillors is thinking this too.
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So who's opinion should matter, exactly? Not that of people whose dwelling is directly impacted by the project, and not that of random people who have no direct skin in the game? Who, then? Or should we just lie down and accept everything Big Brother Metrolinx says as being the one and only truth?
 
LemonCondo said:
Was the glorious "Relief line" going to be automated? Was it going to have platform screen doors?
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You act as though either of these items would be insurmountable to add. Metrolinx isn't some forward thinking visionary for ordering driverless trains and specifying platform screen doors, they are common items on any new rapid transit development worldwide.
 
T3G said:
You act as though either of these items would be insurmountable to add. Metrolinx isn't some forward thinking visionary for ordering driverless trains and specifying platform screen doors, they are common items on any new rapid transit development worldwide.
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LemonCondo said:
Honestly the "reasons" as to why the Ontario Line apparently sucks so much have completely flied over my head. The idea that the whole project is bad and that it should be canceled and sent back to the drawing board is the only truly insane position in this discussion when this city is so starved for transit. It's not like this line is yet another ill-conceived "light rapid transit" route that Metrolinx typically likes to plaster everywhere , it will instead be an extremely modern grade-separated automated metro line. Was the glorious "Relief line" going to be automated? Was it going to have platform screen doors? (Sorry, I'm not old enough to remember.) Trust me, I hate the provincial leadership for all the same reasons you do, but I kind of feel like the "not my guys train" syndrome is really taking effect here. Has the relief line been built in the 15 years the Liberals have been in power? No. Going into the minutia of exactly where the station building is (which I will admit, according to you, might not be perfect!) and claiming this is one of the reasons why the whole thing should be scrapped to delay this line even further? That is mental. Maybe I'm just not seeing something blatantly obvious. Can somebody explain it to me like I'm five years old because otherwise I don't see it.
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The Ontario Line is almost certainly a result of Metrolinx asking that same question. They realized that they were in a position to create a modern fully automated transit line with all of those features, and realized that things like automation would allow them to cut down on train length and save big money here and there. I highly doubt that the Ontario Line is a "restart" of the DRL as much as it is a design progression, just with a slight Doug Ford style rebrand (not dissimilar to GO RER/GO Expansion).
 
T3G said:
I don't recall anyone protesting to save anything on the route of the Scarborough Subway.
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I was talking about Matlow et al.

T3G said:
So who's opinion should matter, exactly?
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The wider public, on whose behalf these projects are being built.

What do you think the results would be of a public poll on whether this line should be delayed for 6-12 months to accommodate the proposed design changes proposed by critics? Let's ask the taxpayers and riders who are paying for this and will use it.
 
T3G said:
You act as though either of these items would be insurmountable to add. Metrolinx isn't some forward thinking visionary for ordering driverless trains and specifying platform screen doors, they are common items on any new rapid transit development worldwide.
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Clearly it is "insurmountable" to build on anything additional after the fact to any transit project in this city. If it was so easy why don't we have platform screen doors on Lines 1 or 2. They took years installing the new signaling system in Line 1 and didn't also install doors. If I was a gambler I would bet big on this continuing to not be a thing for a very very long time. You act like these items cost the same to implement regardless of whether they are installed with the rest of the project or installed years later.
Not that this was even the main point of my post.
 
kEiThZ said:
Let's ask the taxpayers and riders who are paying for this and will use it.
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Yes, let's, by all means.

Heaven knows, that would be the most democratic process Metrolinx has ever undertaken.

But the poll would have to be open and transparent, and detailed in what it is asking. No one sentence loaded questions such as "Do you support delaying the Ontario Line to redesign the station to save a few trees?"

Show the whole scope of impact, keep the question neutral, and don't pretend that substantial delays couldn't arise even if the original design was kept, such as has occurred on the Eglinton Crosstown.

LemonCondo said:
They took years installing the new signaling system in Line 1 and didn't also install doors. If I was a gambler I would bet big on this continuing to not be a thing for a very very long time.
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How do you envision platform screen doors would've worked on Line 1 prior to the activation of the new signalling system, which has come online very recently?

Retrofitting an extant transit line is very, very different to incorporating something into the design from the word go.
 
T3G said:
Retrofitting an extant transit line is very, very different to incorporating something into the design from the word go.
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It's almost like that's exactly the point? It's a good idea to build the line with all the modern systems right from the get go.

T3G said:
How do you envision platform screen doors would've worked on Line 1 prior to the activation of the new signalling system, which has come online very recently?
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How did Paris Line 1 install a new signaling system and platform screen doors within the same project?
 
MrGoose said:
Metrolinx is trying to learn from their previous experiences in constructing the Eglinton Crosstown (Entuitive Engineers Are Playing a Major Role in Crosstown LRT Project: Robert Mackenzie Dec 4 2020, UrbanToronto). Avoid underpinning existing station boxes because that is expensive and time consuming and you never know what you might discover underneath. Additionally, by providing the existing station box a buffer from construction vibrations, you can work at a faster pace. This was a problem in the Crosstown because Yonge/Eglinton remained at peak capacity during the construction and there were very tight tolerances about how much the existing station structure could shift during construction.
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Osgoode Station though is already underpinned - this was mentioned in the relief line studies.
 
LemonCondo said:
Honestly the "reasons" as to why the Ontario Line apparently sucks so much have completely flied over my head. The idea that the whole project is bad and that it should be canceled and sent back to the drawing board is the only truly insane position in this discussion
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No one has 'seriously' suggested that, so far as I'm aware. If that's coming from one of my posts, you need to reread it.

LemonCondo said:
Was the glorious "Relief line" going to be automated?
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Yes. ATC was planned for from the beginning.

LemonCondo said:
Was it going to have platform screen doors? (Sorry, I'm not old enough to remember.)
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Probably, they weren't yet at the stage of working drawings, but it was under discussion; the stations were designed with said doors in mind; as was Line 4 btw (Sheppard)
 
T3G said:
Yes, let's, by all means.

Heaven knows, that would be the most democratic process Metrolinx has ever undertaken.

But the poll would have to be open and transparent, and detailed in what it is asking. No one sentence loaded questions such as "Do you support delaying the Ontario Line to redesign the station to save a few trees?"

Show the whole scope of impact, keep the question neutral, and don't pretend that substantial delays couldn't arise even if the original design was kept, such as has occurred on the Eglinton Crosstown.
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"Please construct a poll that does not actually talk about the substance of the matter, so that I can win."

Did you get advice on polling from the 1995 Parti Quebecois?

For the average person (and voter) who isn't a transit nerd, this is a very simple problem.
 
LemonCondo said:
Clearly it is "insurmountable" to build on anything additional after the fact to any transit project in this city. If it was so easy why don't we have platform screen doors on Lines 1 or 2. They took years installing the new signaling system in Line 1 and didn't also install doors. If I was a gambler I would bet big on this continuing to not be a thing for a very very long time. You act like these items cost the same to implement regardless of whether they are installed with the rest of the project or installed years later.
Not that this was even the main point of my post.
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Multiple existing subways lines have had refits for PEDs; but I'm not sure exactly why that is an issue here. No one is talking about removing PEDs from the design and installing them later.
 
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