Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Translude15]

Does anyone see the OL proposal, one so chock full of question marks and glaring capacity constraints, as a ploy to obtain greater funding from the federal government and perhaps to also amend the original Queen DRL proposal to a King alignment? Looking at the currently proposed route, a comparative alignment underneath King through the core that eventually moves south to East Harbour is certainly feasible with a portal in the Distillery District at Mill and Cherry St. The line could then traverse the Don alongside the southern Lakeshore East ROW and follow the corridor along the tracks before submerging again to reach Bloor. I say this knowing the original DRL alignment study found the King option had higher ridership potential over Queen. Any western extension, which the OL proposes anyways, would be better suited along King anyways if the aim is for the route to dip down and reach Exhibition.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Does anyone see the OL proposal, one so chock full of question marks and glaring capacity constraints, as a ploy to obtain greater funding from the federal government and perhaps to also amend the original Queen DRL proposal to a King alignment? Looking at the currently proposed route, a comparative alignment underneath King through the core that eventually moves south to East Harbour is certainly feasible with a portal in the Distillery District at Mill and Cherry St. The line could then traverse the Don alongside the southern Lakeshore East ROW and follow the corridor along the tracks before submerging again to reach Bloor. I say this knowing the original DRL alignment study found the King option had higher ridership potential over Queen. Any western extension, which the OL proposes anyways, would be better suited along King anyways if the aim is for the route to dip down and reach Exhibition.

Well, if Queens Park really wants to veto Toronto’s reasoning for the DRL under Queen as “closer to the heart of Downtown” (obviously closer to City Hall), then sure, King Street is the superior alignment after all.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Most new stations must have a minimum of TWO entrances or exits.

However, some of the older stations on the rapid transit network still have only one. The stations along the Allen Road could easily have additional entrances added. While Eglinton West will have additional entrances being built, they are only for access to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. They could easily build an additional entrance to the north (Alburn Road) to get users (including bicyclists from the Beltline Trail) better access to the station.

See link.

 

[smallspy]

Probably referring to the Sumach station from the previous plan that was to be built under the Richmond/Adelaide overpass.

But that's not a highway. There is a sidewalk on it. The traffic doesn't pass at 90 or 100 km/h.

Of course that's moot now, as the Ontario Line seems to be the flavour du jour.

Dan

 

[H4F33Z]

Most new stations must have a minimum of TWO entrances or exits.

However, some of the older stations on the rapid transit network still have only one. The stations along the Allen Road could easily have additional entrances added. While Eglinton West will have additional entrances being built, they are only for access to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. They could easily build an additional entrance to the north (Alburn Road) to get users (including bicyclists from the Beltline Trail) better access to the station.

View attachment 197196
See link.

honestly that's just too far to justify an exit. The pathway from the Kay Gardner Trail to eglinton will be reinstated when construction is finished. Also the new crosstown exits and entrances will allow access to line 1 anyway. Also this is the OL Forum.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Clearly you didn't actually read any of the criticisms of the Ontario line concept.

The line just had a business case, and a really shitty one at that (full of confirmation biases). If that is enough to convince you that the plan is sound and automatically superior to the Relief line plan, then there is a problem.

That thing wasn't a Business Case Analysis, it was a sales presentation.

You know, the thing that amazes me most about this "BCA", was how transparently they screwed with the numbers to give the results they wanted. I expected some slight of hand. You know, something like messing with the ridership projection models in a manner that would be opaque to outside observers. But, no, they were pretty straight up with how they screwed with the numbers. Things like assuming they'll be able to hold more people per square metre on Ontario Line trains. Or making the pedestrian catchment area 10 mins for the Ontario Line, vs 5 Mins for DRL (these numbers are wrong, but you get the principle). Or assuming they'll magically get a 10% discount due to the P3 contract (lol what???). And then there's the whole western third of the line, where they admittedly have no specific alignment details (but, yea, everything will be on time and within budget!).

Can't wait to hear the cries from the province when Ottawa predictably denies funding to this thing.

 

[Rainforest]

Does anyone see the OL proposal, one so chock full of question marks and glaring capacity constraints, as a ploy to obtain greater funding from the federal government and perhaps to also amend the original Queen DRL proposal to a King alignment? Looking at the currently proposed route, a comparative alignment underneath King through the core that eventually moves south to East Harbour is certainly feasible with a portal in the Distillery District at Mill and Cherry St. The line could then traverse the Don alongside the southern Lakeshore East ROW and follow the corridor along the tracks before submerging again to reach Bloor. I say this knowing the original DRL alignment study found the King option had higher ridership potential over Queen. Any western extension, which the OL proposes anyways, would be better suited along King anyways if the aim is for the route to dip down and reach Exhibition.

The King alignment probably makes sense, if the line swings south both east and west of Yonge anyway.

I doubt any chance to get more funding from the federal government by announcing a below-optimal capacity. The Feds will say, that's your choice what you build, just don't come back to us for RL 2 funding anytime soon.

 

[Rainforest]

Can't wait to hear the cries from the province when Ottawa predictably denies funding to this thing.

It is extremely unlikely that Ottawa will examine the project in details and deny the funding. They will look at the formal parameters only. Are all required forms filled, and does it fit into the total Ontario's share of the infrastructure fund.

Doing otherwise would trigger accusations that the federal government is overstepping its constitutional powers. They don't want to go there, whether Trudo or Sheer is in charge at the time the decision is made.

About the only situation where they might deny the funding, is if Doug decides he is too important to follow the rules and fill all forms.

 

[44 North]

One thing the business report is right. The Don River and East Harbour area is prone to flooding. How do we know the RL won't flood? There is also a high risk the station box might flood during construction causing unforecasted delays. The DVP in the area floods every year. Underground parking garages along QQ floods for weeks, how do they plan to keep the station dry?

C'mon. We do have stations in floodplains, and stations that flood. Solutions have been found and put to use. Regardless there's a plan underway to make south Broadview flood-proof. As for construction, have you ever seen a construction site, particularly on a weekend? Flooding happens literally all the time. Be it a new home or condo or rapid transit station. Pumps have been around for a few millennia now.

Kinda seems like this hemming and hawing is simply because the project happens to be downtown. Can't recall the Prov or Metrolinx or even the UTverse voicing similar concerns for projects elsewhere.

 

[rbt]

What exactly is the process for applying for federal funding? I was under the impression that it was done through the Infrastructure Bank, who assesses the viability and public benefit of projects before approving financing/funding. Otherwise the bank wouldn’t be very credible to private sector investors if it was just handing out money to any provincial pet project.

I’m very likely wrong about this though. I haven’t read a lot about the specific processes within the infrastructure bank

Infrastructure bank hands out financing. A repayable loan, typically to the contractor (for RER and REM, it's the general contractor that receive financing, not the province). Basically, it's a lower interest alternative to a big 5 bank loan for the general contractor.

There are many federal infrastructure programs which do not require repayment, but they typically close when the government changes. Ontario Line would be looking for funding in whatever program (rule changes are often minor) the next government sets up to replace the "Investing in Canada Plan" which has something like $6.5B of remaining from the $7.5B 2018 Public Transit Infrastucture Funding pool (not to be confused with the closed 2016 PTIF pool) available to Ontario. A Conservative government might repackage those funds to allow highway projects to qualify and change the municipality equation (currently by %age of ridership) to a %age of population driven equation.

Fun fact, an Ontario municipality wanting funds applies for them via Infrastructure Ontario.

Both Ontario and Quebec are struggling to spend the 2018 funding package.

Housing, Infrastructure and Communities Canada - Investing in Canada plan: Infrastructure Canada Bilateral Agreements

Investing in Canada plan: Infrastructure Canada Bilateral Agreements

www.infrastructure.gc.ca

Another fun fact, the $7.5B 2018 PTIF pool is heavily back-end loaded. About 50% of the funding is from 2025-2028.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is extremely unlikely that Ottawa will examine the project in details and deny the funding. They will look at the formal parameters only. Are all required forms filled, and does it fit into the total Ontario's share of the infrastructure fund.

Doing otherwise would trigger accusations that the federal government is overstepping its constitutional powers. They don't want to go there, whether Trudo or Sheer is in charge at the time the decision is made.

About the only situation where they might deny the funding, is if Doug decides he is too important to follow the rules and fill all forms.

Did some digging, and you’re absolutely right about that. I was under the impression that this funding would be coming through the infrastructure bank, which does an analysis of projects before releasing funding.

Through the Public Transit Infrastructure Fund, the City of Toronto has $3.1 Billion which are intended to be used for the Relief Line (NOT the Ontario Line). It should be emphasized that this PTIF funding has been committed to the City of Toronto, and not to the Province. For the Province to get these funds, the City would have to agree to release said funding to the province.

An interesting scenario to watch for is City Council refusing to release those funds to the Province. The Province would have no recourse, as they don’t have the ability to force the City to release the funds (as the funds are the possession of the Federal Government). So the province needs to ensure that whatever plans they draw up are good enough to convince the City to come on board.

Indeed, Mayor Tory specifically changed the language of a recent report to make it clear that the release of said funds are conditional on municipal approval

Take a look at this article (the PTIF section): https://stevemunro.ca/2019/04/17/61-questions-and-counting/

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Province has been preventing prior federal infrastructure funding from being utilized in Ontario. If this situation continues, the federal government could deny funding on the grounds that Ontario is refusing to use prior funding.

Odds are that the Province will start using the previous funding to avoid this situation, but the two levels of government are so incredibly adversarial that they might just decide to play hardball.

 

[smallspy]

One thing the business report is right. The Don River and East Harbour area is prone to flooding. How do we know the RL won't flood? There is also a high risk the station box might flood during construction causing unforecasted delays. The DVP in the area floods every year. Underground parking garages along QQ floods for weeks, how do they plan to keep the station dry?

York Mills Station is located in a river. It hasn't seemed to have been much of an issue there.

Dan

 

[NoahB]

The Ontario Gov might push the Scarborough and North York Extensions overground. They might also change alignment, station numbers, bus bay design.

The Star: Province considers big changes for two subway projects

The document, dated July 29, states the panel may “consider and evaluate potential alternatives” to existing plans for the two extensions to determine whether changes could “deliver the benefits (of the transit projects) in a faster time frame, at less cost.”
Options the panel is expected to consider include “adding or removing stations,” “changing or removing bus terminals,” and “alternate horizontal and vertical alignments.”
The panel will also be tasked with reviewing the Toronto Transit Commission’s estimates for project operating and capital costs, exploring the potential for third-party development to be integrated with subway construction, and determining whether the projects could be procured using public-private partnerships.

 

[Coolstar]

Umm where would they put the Yonge extension??? Elevated in the middle of the street?