Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Streety McCarface]

I was gunna say, I thought all Metrolinx had promised was a grade separated Eg West. They have a budget of $4.7 billion for the 12.5km line, that's only $375 million / km. You can't tunnel for that budget.

4.7 billion dollars, I believe, is more than enough for the elevated Eg West proposal with a few underground grade separations.

Kind of nice that a report dated July 2019, is actually released to the public in July 2019.
Compare to the June 2012 Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Business Case, which was written in June 2012, and released in December 2013.
Those who like open government must be happy with the new direction.

I noticed they proposed 100m stations with 29 to 24 kppdph - which is pretty much what we had been assuming up until now.
They show Figure 21 with the cross platform transfer (at East Harbour, but I also assume Exhibition). With this, I think it assumes that the Ontario Line comes in parallel to the GO line - and it might be hard to suggest alternative routes at either of these locations. It also suggests that (at least at station locations), the Ontario Line will not be elevated (beyond the berm).
View attachment 196243

This graphic is awfully misleading. Have they forgotten about the different fare systems? If you use the Ontario line, you have to go through a barrier, meaning that the actual transfer would be about the same distance as the relief line transfer.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Based on their own numbers, DRL Phase 1 seems like a much wiser investment.

Not necessarily - but I am not convinced Metrolinx offered an apples to apples comparison.

AoD

 

[innsertnamehere]

4.7 billion dollars, I believe, is more than enough for the elevated Eg West proposal with a few underground grade separations.

This graphic is awfully misleading. Have they forgotten about the different fare systems? If you use the Ontario line, you have to go through a barrier, meaning that the actual transfer would be about the same distance as the relief line transfer.

how does a fare barrier add distance? It's not like the Relief Line wouldn't have a fare barrier..

The reality is that the Relief Line track level was about 40m below the grade of the GO tracks... Fare barrier or not, that's a tough transfer with a lot of time sitting on an escalator.

 

[syn]

Not necessarily - but I am not convinced Metrolinx offered an apples to apples comparison.

AoD

Neither am I.

When you factor in DRL North I don't think the comparison becomes very favourable at all towards the OL.

Just to be clear, I'm evaluating all of this based on capacity, reliability and efficiency.

 

[Cobra]

Based on their own numbers, DRL Phase 1 seems like a much wiser investment.

It doesn't address Eglinton-Yonge & Bloor-Yonge Station for possibly an extra decade

 

[BMO]

I honestly cannot believe people are over analyzing and jumping to conclusions over a plan, which at this point is a line on a map only. People don't want to admit it, but the negativity stems from the fact that it was Ford's government who came up with plan. Now, I did not vote for the tories, nor do I agree with some of their policy choices, but the attacks on this forum (as well as most media) is shameful.
People are crying that the RL south is not going forward? well, judging by transit development history in this city, the relief line wouldn't have been built anytime soon. Relief line north? give me a break, 2040 at the earliest. Relief Line west? not even on anyone's radar.
Missing EA's for Ontario Line? good! the less studies, unnecessary documentation, the better and faster we get transit built. Argue all you want, but all EA's come to a pre-determined conclusion that only benefits consultants and delays actual construction.
If you remember, there was an RFP for Ontario Line in Merx, that I believe closed in June. It must have been awarded by now, or close to being awarded. If they can complete it by winter, followed by release of the RFQ (like Verster suggested today), then this pace would be unprecedented in Ontario.

People are so upset with Ford that no matter what he does you'll get people upset with him. This is combined with the Toronto Star's constant pursuit of a "Gotcha" moment.

We had no committed funding for the DRL all the way to Eglinton and as far west as Exhibition. It was just going to be DRL-south which would have essentially been an expensive band-aid solution. This Ontario Line actually hits three birds with one stone. It alleviates traffic at Union Station by intercepting the Lakeshore line at Exhibition, as well as diverts traffic away from Yonge-Bloor by connecting with the Danforth Line. It also alleviates potential future crowding at Yonge-Eglinton by intercepting with the Eglinton crosstown in the north because I have a hunch that the Eglinton Crosstown is going to be at-capacity close to opening day. This is good stuff, and if it ends up being a light-metro tehcnology I think we'll all be asking ourselves in the future, how come we didn't do the same type of thing for Eglinton east and elevate it.

Conversely, the fact that Ford eliminated the co-fare for GO Transit also raises questions on future ridership projections because that's potentially a lot of traffic that could be using GO RER that would end up opting to use the Ontario Line instead due to cost.

 

[Cobra]

Neither am I.

When you factor in DRL North I don't think the comparison becomes very favourable at all towards the OL.

Just to be clear, I'm evaluating all of this based on capacity, reliability and efficiency.

Timing is more of the issue here.

If the Business case is to be believed, you get OL by 2027 addressing critical problems in our network at today's dollar + inflation

RL Phase 1 would open in 2029 and wouldn't relieve Eglinton-Yonge nor sufficiently relieve Bloor-Yonge or Union by intercepting passengers at Exhibition. Then you'd be paying RL Long in "tomorrow's" costs + Inflation while we have nothing in the West. You're also helping the King Streetcar sooner

DRL plan are good but too slow.

 

[syn]

It doesn't address Eglinton-Yonge & Bloor-Yonge Station for possibly an extra decade

Sorry I may have missed this - does this plan call for improvements to Bloor-Yonge?

 

[syn]

Timing is more of the issue here.

If the Business case is to be believed, you get OL by 2027 addressing critical problems in our network at today's dollar + inflation

RL Phase 1 would open in 2029 and wouldn't relieve Eglinton-Yonge nor sufficiently relieve Bloor-Yonge. Then you'd be paying RL Long in "tomorrow's" costs + Inflation while we have nothing in the West.

DRL plan are good but too slow.

You're right - it could've been slower.

The question is, why?

The province has uploaded subway construction. Wasn't the whole point that they could build infrastructure faster and more efficiently?

Why not simply take the current DRL plan and build the northern component at the same time? It would make use of all the work already done, and you'd have the higher capacity line the city needs.

Why did the province take over only to cut corners on a critical piece of infrastructure?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It doesn't address Eglinton-Yonge & Bloor-Yonge Station for possibly an extra decade

That's a purely political choice of separating the planning process of DRL South and North. Metrolinx certainly didn't provide any numbers for the evaluation of the latter in conjunction with DRL South. If the proposal is superior on a cost-effective basis, it should be very easy to demonstrate without apples to oranges comparisons.

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

how does a fare barrier add distance? It's not like the Relief Line wouldn't have a fare barrier..

The reality is that the Relief Line track level was about 40m below the grade of the GO tracks... Fare barrier or not, that's a tough transfer with a lot of time sitting on an escalator.

It's only a 2D representation of an actual transfer. What might actually end up happening makes a bit more sense when you look at it from the sky:

I know it's Weston station, bear with me. If a Relief line platform is 100 meters, the best-case scenario for transferring between the relief line and GO transit would be a 25-meter walk, but this is assuming platforms are wide enough to support this type of transfer. Factor in choke time at the barriers (because so many people would be transferring), and the dwell time may be almost as long or as long as transferring between the Relief Line and GO. (It's a 1-2 minute transfer between GO and the TTC at Downsview Park, this could be nearly the same amount of time).

A more realistic layout would be something more akin to this given the lack of room and placement of fare gates:

Where you'd have to walk up some stairs, through a small concourse, and back down some stairs to change platforms. Given the length of the platforms, this would probably be as bad as the relief line (assuming they made the transfer correctly)

 

[Cobra]

Sorry I may have missed this - does this plan call for improvements to Bloor-Yonge?

I think the plan is that by building the full line, you wouldn't need the Bloor-Yonge Improvements

 

[Leo_Chan]

Only to one track in each direction though - unless they change it so that the OL line is sandwiched in between.

AoD

Spanish Solution?

 

[syn]

People are so upset with Ford that no matter what he does you'll get people upset with him. This is combined with the Toronto Star's constant pursuit of a "Gotcha" moment.

We had no committed funding for the DRL all the way to Eglinton and as far west as Exhibition. It was just going to be DRL-south which would have essentially been an expensive band-aid solution. This Ontario Line actually hits three birds with one stone. It alleviates traffic at Union Station by intercepting the Lakeshore line at Exhibition, as well as diverts traffic away from Yonge-Bloor by connecting with the Danforth Line. It also alleviates potential future crowding at Yonge-Eglinton by intercepting with the Eglinton crosstown in the north because I have a hunch that the Eglinton Crosstown is going to be at-capacity close to opening day. This is good stuff, and if it ends up being a light-metro tehcnology I think we'll all be asking ourselves in the future, how come we didn't do the same type of thing for Eglinton east and elevate it.

Conversely, the fact that Ford eliminated the co-fare for GO Transit also raises questions on future ridership projections because that's potentially a lot of traffic that could be using GO RER that would end up opting to use the Ontario Line instead due to cost.

I'll ask it again - why doesn't Ford just commit the money and get this done properly?

I think the plan is that by building the full line, you wouldn't need the Bloor-Yonge Improvements

View attachment 196262

I think there are still improvements needed with a 17% reduction.

That said - why not just build the full DRL as already planned, including a northern extension?

The province is in control. They can do what they want...so why not that?

 

[Cobra]

I'll ask it again - why doesn't Ford just commit the money and get this done properly?



I think there are still improvements needed with a 17% reduction.

That said - why not just build the full DRL as already planned, including a northern extension?

The province is in control. They can do what they want...so why not that?

The price difference I would assume. The full DRL would be much significantly costlier and take longer. OL (according to the Business Case) is much cheaper and delivers faster than the whole DRL...which doesn't include a western extension relieving Union