Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[CDL.TO]

Let's not get stuck on Queen St. A subway could just as easily go on King as Queen. There's as much development along King St as there is along the rail corridor, plus all the stuff that's there already.

But if what ends up getting built is regional rail on the rail corridor and a subway along King or Queen, this whole argument becomes moot. The city can have both if the Metrolinx plan gets funded.

This is kinda absurd. King and the rail corridor/Front are about 350 metres apart from each other. It's a 3-minute walk or so. A rail corridor route will serve any destination on King and a King route will serve any destination directly on the rail corridor. The only real difference is that the rail corridor could be hundreds of millions of dollars cheaper.

 

[Rainforest]

DRL: route through downtown

What about a combined route: mostly along Front St or the rail corridor to support those new developments, but tilting north (perhaps to Wellington) between Yonge and University?

A station at Bay / Wellington would be very close to both Union and the financial district. Stations at Yonge / Wellington and University / Wellington would provide two additional transfer points to YUS (to King and St. Andrew stations, respectively).

 

[Rainforest]

Another point for debate: should DRL begin with two "wings" (eastern and western) running no further than Bloor?

Perhaps the eastern "wing" should be extended further north (to Don Mills / Eglinton) to provide more relief for Yonge line, whereas the western "wing" may be deferred if a cost reduction is needed?

 

[Whoaccio]

Another point for debate: should DRL begin with two "wings" (eastern and western) running no further than Bloor?

Perhaps the eastern "wing" should be extended further north (to Don Mills / Eglinton) to provide more relief for Yonge line, whereas the western "wing" may be deferred if a cost reduction is needed?

Of all DRL debates, I think it is most important that the line run up to Eglinton on the east end, around Don Mills. That would provide a quick route for Lawrence East and many Eglinton East riders directly downtown. A true "relief" line for Yonge. The Queen/rail corridor debate is far less important, to me, than making sure that the 1st stage includes this.

 

[Hipster Duck]

What about a combined route: mostly along Front St or the rail corridor to support those new developments, but tilting north (perhaps to Wellington) between Yonge and University?

A station at Bay / Wellington would be very close to both Union and the financial district. Stations at Yonge / Wellington and University / Wellington would provide two additional transfer points to YUS (to King and St. Andrew stations, respectively).

Why Wellington? Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars to move the subway 100 metres north? Don't forget that many, if not the majority of riders would not use it to get to the financial district, but to transfer to the rest of the system or GO. For these riders, they have to suffer the unintended consequence of walking 100 metres south to connect to other trains.

 

[nfitz]

Another point for debate: should DRL begin with two "wings" (eastern and western) running no further than Bloor?

Perhaps the eastern "wing" should be extended further north (to Don Mills / Eglinton) to provide more relief for Yonge line, whereas the western "wing" may be deferred if a cost reduction is needed?

One day ...

But would it even start with two wings? Surely the initial line will run simply from Pape to Yonge and something/ perhaps to University if not going to Union. The relief aspect on the west is less critical, and also can be served with the proposed 15-minute service on one of the GO lines until a western wing can be justified.

 

[Rainforest]

Re: DRL eastern wing

Timing matters for the DRL eastern wing north of Bloor, because of the Don Mills LRT plans. The southern part of that route will likely be tunneled anyway.

What is the best way to proceed? Should the two projects be combined? (DRL subway from downtown to Eglinton / Don Mills, and surface light rail north of Don Mills.)

Should the light rail be built first, with tunnel designed to subway specs, and the southern portion replaced with subway at a later date?

Or, perhaps the light rail and subway should co-exist (Don Mills light rail terminating at Bloor & Pape, while the subway crossing Bloor further east and reaching Eglinton at Vic Park or Warden)?

 

[Rainforest]

Why Wellington? Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars to move the subway 100 metres north? Don't forget that many, if not the majority of riders would not use it to get to the financial district, but to transfer to the rest of the system or GO. For these riders, they have to suffer the unintended consequence of walking 100 metres south to connect to other trains.

If the subway is moved 100 or 200 metres north, will it really cost "hundreds of millions"?

One advantage of Wellington alignment (between Yonge and University only) would be 3 transfer points to YUS subway (King, Union, and St. Andrew stations). In contrast, a DRL alignment south of Union will have Union as a single transfer point to YUS.

I assume there will be more transfers between DRL and YUS than between DRL and GO, even when the GO frequencies improve.

 

[MisterF]

Why Wellington? Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars to move the subway 100 metres north? Don't forget that many, if not the majority of riders would not use it to get to the financial district, but to transfer to the rest of the system or GO. For these riders, they have to suffer the unintended consequence of walking 100 metres south to connect to other trains.

Do you have a source? As far as I can tell most subway riders are going directly downtown, and the ones who transfer are mostly going to other subway lines. The DRL's market is mostly people coming downtown from the Bloor line (and Yonge line if the DRL continues north on Don Mills), and people who live east and west of the core - a Union connection isn't much use to that market.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I meant the Union subway station, more so than GO. If it's up on Wellington, presumably at Bay, we will have to find a way to connect it to the Union subway station with a walkway; the train will also barely travel its own length before having to make two stops on either side at St. Andrew and King.

I know that the TTC inflates subway construction costs to justify streetcar evangelism, but I don't think you can build a tunnel from, say, Spadina to Jarvis with three deep stations (because of PATH and the existing subway lines) each with connections to existing stations, for less than $400 million. I'm not against this on a financial principle, but why would we go through this hassle if there is a perfectly grade-separated corridor already around?

 

[Rainforest]

... but why would we go through this hassle if there is a perfectly grade-separated corridor already around?

Well, if DRL can fit and remain within the rail corridor through downtown, then I assume you are right. Deep tunnel to tilt north would be an unreasonable expense, and it would be easier and cheaper to build multiple passenger walkways from the single DRL Union station to handle the crowds.

However, will it fit? At least some of the DRL proposals assumed that the subway will part with rail corridor around Union. Note also that a lot of surface tracks will be needed at Union to handle the proposed GO frequencies.

If the subway line has to be tunneled anyway, then the difference between the Wellington route and, say, Front St. route won't be that large.

 

[nfitz]

Timing matters for the DRL eastern wing north of Bloor, because of the Don Mills LRT plans. The southern part of that route will likely be tunneled anyway.

Does it? The Don Mills LRT is expected to open in 2016. Construction on the DRL isn't planned to start until 2020. Assuming that the first phase is Pape to downtown it would get finished around 2028. A second phase would extend to around Dundas West, say 2035. And an extension north of Danforth would be sometime after the current 25-year planning period that Metrolinx is using, so maybe start in 2035, complete in 2040.

That's 25-years after the LRT would open, so is it worth spending 100 of millions now, to save a bit more in a quarter-century. Someone should do a cost-benefit analysis.

Though if you were to extend the DRL further north, does it still make sense to cross the Danforth at Pape? You could leave the existing LRT running under Pape, and extend the subway to Coxwell or something, and then run an express subway that has stations at Danforth/Coxwell O'Connor/Coxwell, Overlea/Don Mills, Eglinton/Don Mills, leaving the LRT still functioning on Pape and on the surface.

Wouldn't that be a better network at the end of the day? And to do this, you wouldn't build a tunnel along Pape for future upgrade.

 

[Rainforest]

The Don Mills LRT is expected to open in 2016. Construction on the DRL isn't planned to start until 2020. Assuming that the first phase is Pape to downtown it would get finished around 2028. A second phase would extend to around Dundas West, say 2035. And an extension north of Danforth would be sometime after the current 25-year planning period that Metrolinx is using, so maybe start in 2035, complete in 2040.

That's 25-years after the LRT would open, so is it worth spending 100 of millions now, to save a bit more in a quarter-century. Someone should do a cost-benefit analysis.

Though if you were to extend the DRL further north, does it still make sense to cross the Danforth at Pape? You could leave the existing LRT running under Pape, and extend the subway to Coxwell or something, and then run an express subway that has stations at Danforth/Coxwell O'Connor/Coxwell, Overlea/Don Mills, Eglinton/Don Mills, leaving the LRT still functioning on Pape and on the surface.

Wouldn't that be a better network at the end of the day? And to do this, you wouldn't build a tunnel along Pape for future upgrade.

This is a reasonable approach, but it has some drawbacks. First of all, we end up with two tunnels north of Bloor, and that will be more expensive than one tunnel.

Secondly, here is a little contradiction. If we get DRL Phase I from downtown to Pape, there will be no point to extend it to Eglinton / Don Mills and duplicate the light rail line.

To get a really better network at the end of the day, the DRL subway would have to go further east along the waterfront, perhaps to Coxwell or Woodbine, and then turn north to reach Danforth. But then, Don Mills LRT will not have a direct connection to DRL between 2028 (when DRL reaches Danforth) and 2040 (when it reaches Eglinton per your count).

 

[Hipster Duck]

However, will it fit? At least some of the DRL proposals assumed that the subway will part with rail corridor around Union. Note also that a lot of surface tracks will be needed at Union to handle the proposed GO frequencies.

A similar argument was bandied around the Jane LRT thread where it was presumed that 8 tracks were needed to handle the combined load of VIA, GO, an LRT and Blue 22. The truth is that the 14 tracks in Union station is more than enough to handle the capacity of that station for the forseeable future. Berlin, for example, can accommodate all its main east-west intercity and S-bahn traffic on just 3 platforms in the central station. Clapham Junction, which sees 121 trains per hour has just two more tracks than Union station, and it could probably have had less if it wasn't for the fact that a gigantic wye that directs trains to different directions lies just to the east of the station itself.

If we dedicate the northernmost 2 tracks to the DRL, the other 12 tracks can very easily be allocated to GO and VIA.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If the DRL was built, by the time it was finished, we'd really have to stop thinking of "downtown" as little more than what's inside the YUS loop - subway stops at Jarvis and John and so on would most definitely embiggen "downtown."

The DRL could certainly start running from Union to Pape or something like that...they wouldn't keep the whole thing closed until a longer "complete" DRL from Dundas West to Eglinton (or beyond in one or both directions). There's no good reason to stop the DRL at Don Mills & Eglinton - to really provide maximum relief to the Yonge line it must go as far north as Finch (conveniently, it passes through plenty of stuff and jobs and people along the way). Oh, wait, it may not be at capacity north of Eglinton...and any inch of subway line that isn't filled to capacity is horrible.