The REAL
New Member
They underestimated how complicated building new stations under the current stations would be.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
generalcanada
Senior Member
While true, its not why they started construction on the tunnels 5 years before the stations.
Its for 2 reasons really.
so that they could say they have shovels in the ground for a project early and that and so they had time to firm up station design work.
There are metrolinx documents online showing a 2012 station construction start date
A twist was thrown in when metrolinx took over the line 5 contract from the ttc entirely and required all the design work previously done by the ttc to be redone by crosslinx.
All that is to say that there was alot of underestimation, it doesnt account for the time between the tbm contract was awarded and when station construction started
afransen
Senior Member
This is political pandering I can get behind!
The federal government sounds fairly desperate for Milton Line improvements as well, and the fairly low purported price tag ($1B) leaves me puzzled why the province isn't pursuing this, at least not publicly.
Bureaucromancer
Active Member
I’d honestly be rather surprised if the PCs didn’t dangle something to do with the Milton line come the next election…
Sheppard honestly doesn’t hold all that much political capital after all the nonsense in Scarborough, and 2026 will be somewhat early to start talking about it as a follow up to the BD extension (I’d apply the same logic to 407 in relation to the OL loop). Quite frankly I’d say it’s rather likely to be around the peak of “they’ve been building for how many years and we’re still riding busses” type stories in relation to the Scarborough extension.
Conversely GO expansion ought to be showing something by then, quite possibly with timelines for the beginning of electric operation starting to look real.
I make no comment on how REAL the promise will be.
Sheppard honestly doesn’t hold all that much political capital after all the nonsense in Scarborough, and 2026 will be somewhat early to start talking about it as a follow up to the BD extension (I’d apply the same logic to 407 in relation to the OL loop). Quite frankly I’d say it’s rather likely to be around the peak of “they’ve been building for how many years and we’re still riding busses” type stories in relation to the Scarborough extension.
Conversely GO expansion ought to be showing something by then, quite possibly with timelines for the beginning of electric operation starting to look real.
I make no comment on how REAL the promise will be.
crs1026
Superstar
I tend to agree that there will be a slowing in new projects once the bills for the current transit wave comes due.
We came out of a wave of decades where there was little transit investment (thanks, Mike Harris and Mel Lastman) into an era where money seems to grow on trees and the capability to manage projects is pushed to the limit. Some people may think that this pace will continue unabated, but we simply don't have the bandwidth or funding for more.
I would hope we hit a steady state where we continue to grow the network but at a more measured and sustainable pace. How Milton fares in that climate remains to be seen.
- Paul
Sunnyside
Active Member
Are you saying that the current rate of say, 4 simultaneous u/c projects is unsustainable? Or having this many projects in this tight of a timeline in general? The latter is more about the 'rate' of projects staying high, ie. we get new projects going every few years. The former is more concerned with capacity to build- if we can do this many projects simultaneously, we can probably continue to (and it is probably better to get good at it).
DKB
New Member
Imo ...Because of constructabilty of tunnel and how tbm working
devvydoesstuff
New Member
Just wondering, where did you find that?
nfitz
Superstar
Read down the posts from that day.
Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
Interesting... why is the colour not blue?? If it weren't for the line's name being printed, it'd be almost as if they did decide to renumber Sheppard to 3 (with the SRT gone), and the OL to 4, thereby grouping all 3 legacy subway lines together and the OL coming right after them. Blue is not...
crs1026
Superstar
Both, actually.
There are plenty of people saying that the current rate of deficit spending by all levels of government is unsustainable. I am not arguing against deficit spending (especially for infrastructure where paying off over time is attractive) but I do foresee there will be a general belt tightening right across the public sector. One cannot expect restraint in all other public domains and transit/transport to somehow escape that.
I am also concerned that government is not maintaining a core inventory of transit dedicated project managers and designers, and perhaps even field forces, to handle these projects. So far, we have found vendors who are willing and able to staff these projects, but we are likely paying a premium to compete with other things. If government suddenly finds other needs.... airport expansion, electricity supply, carbon reduction,or whatever, these forces may drift away - potentially even internationally.
We do not have four major projects on the go right now.... we have many more than that - if you add up Go Expansion, various LRT's a-building or planned, potentially VIA HfR, plus the four subways., plus a busway or two. I can ssee doing four at a time, but the "wish list" is pretty long.
Lastly, the willingness of politicians to take political risks on transit is shrinking. We have blowback in Ottawa and here on Crosstown. All we need is for one more project to blow up, and the political appetite for transit may decline even if the needs are there. Politicians will look for something to spend money on that promises more good news and less bad news. No guarantee that the need will result in a prompt solution.
- Paul
allengeorge
Senior Member
I think that if the Crosstown is opened successfully and escapes the same catastrophic issues that plagued Ottawa, we’ll be in a much better place.
Also, it bears noting that despite all the problems with the Crosstown, the government isn’t paying a substantial political cost. Yes, people are annoyed - but news stories aren’t laying this at the feet of the OPC (unlike, say, the Greenbelt, autism budgets, etc. etc. - all of which they deserve the fallout)
And, for all his faults, one thing I do appreciate about Ford is that at least on building stuff (transit, highways, etc.) he sticks to his guns and keeps ploughing on. I may not agree with his highway projects, but I prefer his spproach to the Liberals’ “let’s waffle on everything and hope the problems go away, or become someone else’s issue”.
Also, it bears noting that despite all the problems with the Crosstown, the government isn’t paying a substantial political cost. Yes, people are annoyed - but news stories aren’t laying this at the feet of the OPC (unlike, say, the Greenbelt, autism budgets, etc. etc. - all of which they deserve the fallout)
And, for all his faults, one thing I do appreciate about Ford is that at least on building stuff (transit, highways, etc.) he sticks to his guns and keeps ploughing on. I may not agree with his highway projects, but I prefer his spproach to the Liberals’ “let’s waffle on everything and hope the problems go away, or become someone else’s issue”.
allengeorge
Senior Member
That all said, I do hope:
1. The current projects being executed on are finished to completion.
2. We start feeding new, funded projects into the pipeline. I don’t care if it’s not the same scale as currently, as long as there are some. We need to get out of this “feast or famine” mentality.
3. We tackle cost escalation seriously. I don’t know why we build at a cost substantially higher than France, say, but we do need to figure this out. We could be building a magnitude more if we were more cost-effective.
At least on (2) I believe you and I are aligned.
1. The current projects being executed on are finished to completion.
2. We start feeding new, funded projects into the pipeline. I don’t care if it’s not the same scale as currently, as long as there are some. We need to get out of this “feast or famine” mentality.
3. We tackle cost escalation seriously. I don’t know why we build at a cost substantially higher than France, say, but we do need to figure this out. We could be building a magnitude more if we were more cost-effective.
At least on (2) I believe you and I are aligned.
T3G
Senior Member
I think that, considering the line is already more than 2 years delayed and the laughing stock of the city, and armchair experts are already declaring it to be a waste of money and no faster than the buses they are supposed to replace despite having no way of knowing that, this ship has sailed.
allengeorge
Senior Member
That ship has not sailed. There’s a big difference between “line is not ready because of construction issues” (cue eye-rolling and ’standard’ talk about government waste and poor execution) vs. “the line has constant operational problems and has to be constantly taken in and out of service, and needs substantial rework”. The latter is different, and has resulted in an inquiry as well as a catastrophic loss in confidence.
Sunnyside
Active Member
It is worth considering there are no further subway extensions planned that are not for the elevated Ontario Line. In a certain respect, we are “getting them out the way“ even if we don’t start driving costs down. This speaks to @crs1026 ‘a comment, and hopefully points to getting wiser with what we’re choosing to build. I do know York has extensions planned to 2051, but I don’t think that’s in the same realm of feasibility.