Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

David Miller is the one who oversaw the urban planning disaster in Liberty Village, so it's ironic he's saying parts of King West are already served properly by streetcar. I guess that's the reason he didnt want to proceed with the Front St Extension and idiotically canned that much needed link that we'll never get.

I wont even get started with the Scarborough saga under his watch.

 

[W. K. Lis]

David Miller is the one who oversaw the urban planning disaster in Liberty Village, so it's ironic he's saying parts of King West are already served properly by streetcar. I guess that's the reason he didnt want to proceed with the Front St Extension and idiotically canned that much needed link that we'll never get.

I wont even get started with the Scarborough saga under his watch.

The Ontario Line will be replacing that Front Street extension, with stations at Exhition (Liberty Village) and King/Bathurst.

 

[TossYourJacket]

The Ontario Line will be replacing that Front Street extension, with stations at Exhition (Liberty Village) and King/Bathurst.

Then that explains why he opposes this too.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Miller seems to be making the case that if the route has a streetcar already, that it doesn't need the OL.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599215530895818752

The argument should be that instead of Exibition it should be going across King West to Roncesvalles. Not that it shouldn't be built at all. Miller is wrong here.

One issue is whether OL should continue west of Yonge at all. It probably should.

Another issue is whether the route west of Yonge should veer far to the south and hit the Exhibition GO station. I don't believe that's a great choice. A straight route under Queen would serve areas both south and north of Queen. Liberty Village would be within a short bus ride (Dufferin or Ossington) from the Queen subway. Most importantly, it would be a lot easier to extend the line further west to meet Bloor subway and then go north.

From the Exhibition terminus, any route back north would be long and quite expensive.

Exactly. The original DRL route is fine. Miller is wrong, but Ford invites this type of criticism when he diverts a line to an area that will see tons of condos go up. The line was stopping along Strachan and Dufferin regardless if it was queen or king under the full DRL, so the diversion to Exhibition station is unecessary.

 

[nfitz]

David Miller is the one who oversaw the urban planning disaster in Liberty Village, so it's ironic he's saying parts of King West are already served properly by streetcar. I guess that's the reason he didn't want to proceed with the Front St Extension and idiotically canned that much needed link that we'll never get.

Because we want more elevated expressway spurs and ramps downtown - which was most of the cost of that project - which would also likely have sterealized the ability to build the Exhibition station expansion, and further complicate the streetcar extension from Exhibition Loop to Dufferin.

If there's an issue, it's that the current project only builds a surface street from Dufferin to Strachan - with no plans (yet?) to connect from Strachan to Bathurst/Front.

 

[Rainforest]

Except part of the point here is to serve the density - which exists in Liberty Village thanks to our good friends David M and Adam V, other parts of the city didn't need to densify much because loads of condos could be plopped down there. A connecting bus on a wide suburban street for a 20+ minute journey is fine, a 7 minute bus ride that you'll probably have to wait 10 minutes for (at least) will be hell, just try the Ossington or Dufferin buses. Getting up to Bloor seems to get people very excited but there is a much better (potential / eventual) connection between GO and TTC at Dundas West, and the four tracks of the Kitchener Line have a LOT of capacity.

Generally, it is unusual to tweak a subway route so much in order to hit any particular condo cluster. Sure, this is better for the Liberty Village residents, but worse for those who lives or will live at Queen West or Dundas West. Even if the density there is not as high as at Liberty Village today, highrises will surely go up there in the not-so-distant future as the downtown areas continue to gain residents.

And then the Queen West / Dundas West residents will have to deal with the same Ossington or Dufferin buses in order to get to either subway line, OL or Bloor.

Not sure about the Kitchener Line capacity, as it will be consumed by GO trips from the outer 416, as well as from Brampton / Kitchener etc. But even if Kitchener line can do the job of relieving Bloor West subway, and thus OL doesn't need to go back to Bloor in the west - I would still think that the OL route straight along Queen West to Roncesvalles would be a better choice. More coverage overall, and shorter average bus trips if the whole area is taken into account, not just Liberty Village.

Of course it is too late to change the OL route now. However, we should be aware of its drawbacks, as they might cause new transit bottlenecks that will have to be addressed.

 

[asey20]

Generally, it is unusual to tweak a subway route so much in order to hit any particular condo cluster. Sure, this is better for the Liberty Village residents, but worse for those who lives or will live at Queen West or Dundas West. Even if the density there is not as high as at Liberty Village today, highrises will surely go up there in the not-so-distant future as the downtown areas continue to gain residents.

And then the Queen West / Dundas West residents will have to deal with the same Ossington or Dufferin buses in order to get to either subway line, OL or Bloor.

Not sure about the Kitchener Line capacity, as it will be consumed by GO trips from the outer 416, as well as from Brampton / Kitchener etc. But even if Kitchener line can do the job of relieving Bloor West subway, and thus OL doesn't need to go back to Bloor in the west - I would still think that the OL route straight along Queen West to Roncesvalles would be a better choice. More coverage overall, and shorter average bus trips if the whole area is taken into account, not just Liberty Village.

Of course it is too late to change the OL route now. However, we should be aware of its drawbacks, as they might cause new transit bottlenecks that will have to be addressed.

I feel like they could eventually add a branch to the Ontario line and have it continue along Queen West. A lot of other places do branch lines so I could see it happening in this case as well.

 

[T3G]

I feel like they could eventually add a branch to the Ontario line and have it continue along Queen West. A lot of other places do branch lines so I could see it happening in this case as well.

The downside to that is you'd have to set a limit for the capacity on both branches. If you have 90 second frequencies on the shared portion of the line, you cannot have them on the branched parts as well because the blended frequency would be higher than the infrastructure would allow.

 

[sche]

Generally, it is unusual to tweak a subway route so much in order to hit any particular condo cluster. Sure, this is better for the Liberty Village residents, but worse for those who lives or will live at Queen West or Dundas West. Even if the density there is not as high as at Liberty Village today, highrises will surely go up there in the not-so-distant future as the downtown areas continue to gain residents.

And then the Queen West / Dundas West residents will have to deal with the same Ossington or Dufferin buses in order to get to either subway line, OL or Bloor.

Not sure about the Kitchener Line capacity, as it will be consumed by GO trips from the outer 416, as well as from Brampton / Kitchener etc. But even if Kitchener line can do the job of relieving Bloor West subway, and thus OL doesn't need to go back to Bloor in the west - I would still think that the OL route straight along Queen West to Roncesvalles would be a better choice. More coverage overall, and shorter average bus trips if the whole area is taken into account, not just Liberty Village.

Of course it is too late to change the OL route now. However, we should be aware of its drawbacks, as they might cause new transit bottlenecks that will have to be addressed.

It is not unusual for a subway route to detour to hit major development nodes, and very common for subways to deviate to connect to major rail stations, sporting venues, and convention centres. Queen West is mostly yellowbelt zoning right now, and nothing bigger than a midrise is getting built, and I doubt this will change significantly in the near future due to NIMBYs, unless the province enacts an extremely drastic MZO.

Liberty Village/Exhibition is also cheaper (above ground and shorter) and enables a cheap above ground alignment to Roncasvalles or further west.

The Kitchener Line has platforms 2.5x longer than the subway and will be 4 tracks - even at somewhat lower frequency that's easily double post-upgrade Yonge subway, and theoretical max capacity is probably something like 4-5 Yonge subways (if operated like RER A, which will probably never be needed in Toronto). There should be almost no concern about Kitchener Line capacity.

 

[Rainforest]

It is not unusual for a subway route to detour to hit major development nodes, and very common for subways to deviate to connect to major rail stations, sporting venues, and convention centres. Queen West is mostly yellowbelt zoning right now, and nothing bigger than a midrise is getting built, and I doubt this will change significantly in the near future due to NIMBYs, unless the province enacts an extremely drastic MZO.

On one side, the NIMBYs. On the other side, the combined force of the social advocates who want more housing, and big bucks developers who see prime land and smell massive profits.

I doubt the area will remain lowrise / midrise for very long.

Liberty Village/Exhibition is also cheaper (above ground and shorter) and enables a cheap above ground alignment to Roncasvalles or further west.

That's possibly true, although depends on the OL extension route in the west. If it was to go up Dufferin, then the at-grade section would be pretty short, and the total cost made higher by the diversion as the total length is greater.

But if it sticks to the LSW rail corridor till Roncasvalles, or till Parkiside Drive, or maybe past High Park, then the selected route might be somewhat cheaper than a tunnel under Queen.

 

[Rainforest]

I feel like they could eventually add a branch to the Ontario line and have it continue along Queen West. A lot of other places do branch lines so I could see it happening in this case as well.

That means lower frequencies of the branches. Plus, will not be easy to split since the split point will be in the tunneled section. Need to open the tunnel, and need to create safeguards to avoid trains coming from the two branches colliding.

Branch stations are often built with at least 3 tracks. In this case, the Spadina/Queen station would have one westbound track for both branches, and two eastbound tracks sharing a common platform. Eastbound trains from each branch would be arriving on its own track, stopping, and then merging east of the station, minimizing the risk of collision.

That kind of structure should be built from the onset, or it can be built afterwards in the surface secion. Hard to do afterwards in the tunnel section.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

@Rainforest great points. And to add, Metrolinx already said the line is going to Roncesvalles for OL West so how exactly do you think it will be easy to make a sharp turn up Dufferin to Queen? and the stop that will have to be at dufferin/queen on the way to Dundas West and (eventually) Mount Dennis? Come on folks.

 

[NoahB]

@Rainforest great points. And to add, Metrolinx already said the line is going to Roncesvalles for OL West so how exactly do you think it will be easy to make a sharp turn up Dufferin to Queen? and the stop that will have to be at dufferin/queen on the way to Dundas West and (eventually) Mount Dennis? Come on folks.

Mind linking to where Metrolinx confirming that a future extension is aimed to get to Roncesvalles? First time I hear of it.

 

[nfitz]

Mind linking to where Metrolinx confirming that a future extension is aimed to get to Roncesvalles? First time I hear of it.

Seems inevitable. But Roncesvalles and Queen or Roncesvalles and Dundas (near Dundas West station).

 

[CapitalSeven]

My recollection is that Metrolinx said the line could go up Dufferin or further west, but nothing has been written down very clearly and there doesn't seem to be any firm plan since an extension is pretty far out.